I found the problem: general incompetance on my part. Entered the date wrong.

It's always something simple!

Bob

PS: Well, maybe not so simple. I went back and corrected the date, but I still can't get the Morinus data to match Starkman's. I suspect the answer may be that Starkman used the Placidus key, and there is no entry for that key in the menu OPTIONS/PRIMARY KEYS. So can someone tell me what I should enter in the 'user' option to get the Placidian key?

We've all done it!

Bulletbobb wrote:I suspect the answer may be that Starkman used the Placidus key, and there is no entry for that key in the menu OPTIONS/PRIMARY KEYS. So can someone tell me what I should enter in the 'user' option to get the Placidian key?

The 'True Solar Equatorial Arc' is the Placidean key.

I got a reply from Isaac Starkman, but all he said was that Morinus doesn't do TPD's. I had said in my email to him that I was aware of that, but that it was my understanding that aspects to/by the angles are the same in all systems. I'm beginning to wonder if that is true. I sent him a reply asking for clarification, so we'll see what he says.

In the meantime, I have tried using both the True Solar Equatorial Arc and the TS Ecliptical Arc, but the dates are still off by 3 and 5 years, respectively. Using semi arc and under the pole has no effect on the date.

I am certain I have the right chart, because I compared it to Makransky's data, and they are the same.

It would be a big help if someone with Morinus or Polaris would enter the Prince's data and tell me what they get. I have no clue as to what is wrong.

Bob

Bulletbobb wrote: In the meantime, I have tried using both the True Solar Equatorial Arc and the TS Ecliptical Arc, but the dates are still off by 3 and 5 years, respectively. Using semi arc and under the pole has no effect on the date.

Bob

I don't know Topocentric PD, but for the under the pole I would swear that for angles they coincide with semiarc, see Martin Gansten book, chapter about under the pole directions.

margherita

Bulletbobb wrote:It would be a big help if someone with Morinus or Polaris would enter the Prince's data and tell me what they get. I have no clue as to what is wrong.

What are the data, and which directions are you looking for?

Good idea.

I did some lookup through my old books and found out that Topo pds are zodiacal, and use Naibod in RA as the key. The disconnect here is probably in how they calculate the arc. Margaret Millard says in her book that it's promissor under the pole of the significator, but I need to look at the actual calculations to see exactly what that's supposed to mean, and whether they do anything odd in calculating the ascensional difference (my suspicion is that they do).

But I'm on the day job right now, so it will probably be a while.

- Ed

To answer Martin's question first, here is the link for the Prince's data:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... &start=150

I'm mostly interested in the first and last dates, where the angles are concerned.

But here is my latest answer from Isaac, asking for a verification of my assumption the aspects to/by the angles are the same in all systems of PD's:

Hi Bob,
To your first question: Absolutly incorrect!
Again: you can't get the aspects I gave for Prince Charles in Topo PD with Morinus, no matter what parameters you will change. Try to install Marr's program and you will see all the aspects. I don't use Morinus, It is a waste of time.
Isaac

I wish he had gone into a bit more detail, but it is what it is.

Now I'll leave it to the experts to explain!

Bob

It's easy to explain. We astrologers have big egos.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure Isaac is right if you want to do Topo PDs with Morinus, though.

- Ed

Hello,

When I first started looking into these systems (as per Isaac Starkman / Alexander Marr), I tried the same thing... (ie. use Morinus to calculate them)

I quickly found out that changing every conceivable setting didn't get me even CLOSE.

Realizing that it was likely a complete waste of time, I then downloaded Astro. Since I didn't know (yet) that Astro wouldn't run on a modern system UNLESS you have a Dos-wrapper like Dosbox, I had to haul out an old laptop that was set up correctly for the program. In the first evening with the program, I got within a second of my actual birthtime. Later, I got Dosbox and installed Astro on my newer laptop and, of course, on my main desktop system. Also, I bought Polaris, since I wanted to be able to automate the search for best fitting time using Topocentric Primary Directions. The program was $350 very well spent.

Now, as for Isaac... remember that he gets asked often about this, so his answer has probably gotten more brief with each asking. (I asked him the same thing long ago)

Isaac didn't write Morinus. Isaac wrote Polaris. He has been nothing but helpful in using the program and in understanding these systems. Additionally, he has cross-checked my first rectifications and unbelievably has sent me enough clients to pay for the software!

As far as Primary Directions, I have looked at MANY presentations from MANY authors. No system (yet seen) has the very tight orbs, appropriate symbolism and reliability of TPD's. Additionally, only in this system are the cusps themselves hot spots with appropriate aspects at corresponding events.

I know this is controversial and I don't want to argue about it. I am speaking from my experience. Use it or don't. It's not my wasted time, if you don't.

I wish you luck, Bulletbobb, but I am pretty sure that Isaac is 100% correct... Morinus will not get you "there." I pulled one hair out at each failed attempt...now look at me!

If you want TPD's, I think you'll need Polaris (best), Astro (very useful, plus you get PSSR aspects), or Kolev's program (supposedly correctly calculated, but perhaps not so easy to use as a program).

Remember, Astro is free. Nothing stops anyone from downloading it and checking out Topocentric Primary Directions on their own. If you're savvy, you can even use it to rectify your chart. (Remember that for Primary Directions, you need a VERY ACCURATE birthtime)

I think Astro is such a cool/needed tool that I host it at http://www.jamesalexander.de/astro.zip with instructions at, you guessed it, http://www.jamesalexander.de/instructions.zip. [Dos-box or other "Dos Wrapper" needed to use Astro on newer machines]

Take care and good luck!

Atlantean

Atlantean helped me with the above processes (downloading Astro), and I am gradually learning how to view/understand TPD?S. I have found (still discovering) good astrological merit with Atlantean above words.

Regards, Steve

Atlantean :

The main issue I am trying get clarification on in this thread is whether TPD angles are the same as those produced by other systems. A priori one would assume they would be, since the angles of natal topocentric houses are the same as those of other systems. Apparently they are not. It would take a very technical examination of the underlying mathematics to understand why they aren't, and I am certainly not capable of doing so.

I will say that I have spot checked a few of my personal test events using the usual Placidian PD's as calculated by Morinus, and to say that I was underwhelmed by the results would be an understatement.

Bob