Skyscript Astrology Forum

I agree with Margherita and Gabe.

I use Googlebooks as the equivalent of browsing in a bookshop. If I like what I see I usually seek to buy the book. Not least because the completist in me wants those bits of the book missing on Googlebooks! In an era of decline for both commercial bookshops and libraries I think Googlebooks does more good than harm overall.

I agree with Deb that astrologers love books! You dont have to be a biblomaniac but it helps. This tendency seems even more pronounced amongst students of traditional astrology.

I guess I am one of those Luddites that prefer having a book in my hands to an electronic copy. I find it more convenient to study with a book than an electronic copy. Plus you can take it with you on a train, plane or bus. I also like having an astrological library to consult. Its at least more secure than electrononic files that go missing when a laptop dies. Ok there are back systems nowadays. Maybe, If I am honest its a materialist thing too. I just like owning books. I suppose that makes me a Dinosaur. E-books are certainly the way things are going.

Mark

I guess I am one of those Luddites that prefer having a book in my hands to an electronic copy..... I suppose that makes me a Dinosaur. E-books are certainly the way things are going.

Mark

Well - long live the Luddites, I say! Surprisingly a recent survey by the Bookseller magazine showed that in the UK at least, uptake of e-books is much slower than expected - in fact 70% of those questioned out of a survey of 3000 people said they were dead set against buying an e-reader. I think it depends a lot on your day job to be honest. Apart from the fact that I love books anyway, I spend my day at a monitor, so the last thing I want to do is look at another one to read for leisure in the evening, however small, neat and book-like it may appear. There is something very different about holding a book - it doesn't hurt your eyes as much as reading from a screen, and it is a totally different experience. So whilst as a publisher I acknowledge it it is important to be part of the e-book world, and I can see the merits of e-readers for a certain kind of reader, I really do believe there will always be a place for the the real thing.

The thing about e-readers is that you can't fold the corners down, or underline, or scribble in the margins. I have so many stick-it notes sticking out of some books that they are all rendered useless by the fact that every page has at least one. But I still keep adding them in - it's a ritual.

And as for reading off computer screens, I think that most of us enjoy reading because it takes us away from the idea of being at work, so its not for me. On Google books you can't print the pages anyway (although you can if you take screenshots and then paste and crop them in Word - I've heard). You would need to be desperate but this is a fantastic thing for researchers, especially since some of the academic titles are literally hundreds of pounds to buy.

PDF files are great for searching, but not for reading or study. One of the wisest things I ever did, about a year ago, was to start building a Word file which is basically just an organised hyperlinked list of astrological texts, with links to PDF files on my own system, online texts and Google book editions. I keep a shortcut to that file on my desktop, so I can access different versions of my most impotrtant texts within seconds if I want to grab a reference. But if I want to read or study a passage I always make for the book.

Tom, I relate to everything you say. I lost a really important book when I left it in the flap of the seat in front, on a flight last year, and tried everything to get it back from the airline (well, I called someone at BA). To no avail. And I'm so forgetful nowadays. I can't remember if I told you this already but somehow I'm OK with astrology, but the minute I stop talking about astrology I have no idea what I'm talking about or if I've already said it. I make early appointments so that I have to get up especially for them; but then I still get up early and forget the appointment. One day you and I won't come back to this site anymore, because we will simply have forgotten about it.

I'd like to second all the points made by Tom, Deb, Margaret and Mark against electronic books and in favour of printed books.

Electronic media are inherently unstable and of limited lifespan compared with printed media for a start. It might be (and I don't know this because I've never owned an electronic book reader), Tom, that if you lost or had stolen or suffered the mechanical or electronic failure of your reader, you would be entitled within the terms of the licences issued by the company from which you had purchased them to have all the files you had previously bought returned to you on your next device (presuming that after the loss or theft or breakdown you would still want another one). All the same, there is something repugnant to me about being dependent on the record-keeping and goodwill of licence-issuing companies in such an event, and at least with printed books you don't have to buy a new physical device to read them for hundreds of dollars every five to ten years, or however long they last.

I think that there is definitely a market for electronic readers among people on the move a lot, and especially perhaps among people who enjoy habitually carrying electronic devices around with them as part of their lifestyle; but I think that, the ubiquity of mobile telephony excepted, this latter category is still a relatively small subsection of the overall population in western countries, though perhaps a somewhat higher percentage of the under-30s than the over-30s, and quite possibly a higher percentage among computer technology professionals generally.

I'd be interested to see figures for the types of books that get read on e-readers as compared with the equivalent sales of physical books. I rather suspect a bias in favour of pulp fiction and perhaps popular history, psychology and science books, but against the most demanding non-fiction that really requires pen and paper at hand in order to study it properly, as I think certainly applies to a good many astrology texts.

Six months ago, columnist Michael Stillman at the online antiquarian book world-focused magazine 'Americana Exchange' ventured to suggest that the move towards electronic books would be much faster and ultimately more comprehensive than I believe to be at all likely, stating that:

We give it only another year or two before electronic textbooks become the norm rather than the exception

and...

essentially, yes, electronic texts will replace books, newspapers, and other printed matter

... before expressing a belief that sales of printed books will soon be analogous to those of vinyl records, accounting for less than 1% of the recorded music market.

Further, he quotes the founder of Amazon as stating that he too believes the printed book will eventually be history.

See:
http://www.americanaexchange.com/NewAE/ ... m=2&y=2010

This strikes me as a classic case of futurological wishful thinking on the part of individuals who happen to like a particular innovation personally but are blind to the enduring appeal of the old.

While computers might have rendered typewriters substantially obsolete on account of their greater flexibility when it comes to word processing, there is still a place for the hand-written letter. In the case of electronic books, there is not a lot more that can be done with them than can be done with printed books, and they have many disadvantages when it comes to durability and value retention, in addition to considerations of craftsmanship and aesthetics (not everyone prefers a slice of anodyne grey metal to a natural piece of cloth-bound wood). I think that the enduring appeal of books will be a lot more resilient than has been forecast.

PS: Regarding the forgetfulness reported by Tom and Deb, I think you may very well both be suffering from a case of 'Absent-minded Professor Syndrome', and can rest assured that it is the mark of an intellectual, someone who invests so much brain power into thinking beyond the immediately present physical and temporal environment that details of what is where or when in that environment become easily overlooked. I speak as someone who has often been accused of the same failings.

Philip,
An excellent piece of writing, highlighting some really important points. The only thought I wanted to add is that (speaking from a publisher's point of view) certainly the enormous amount of pressure we get to put our books into e-format comes from the suppliers of the e-readers, the authors who are scared of missing something, and the book wholesalers who are struggling up to keep up with a false and implied demand. Hardly a whisper from the supposed masses crying out for them.

Hi Tom!

Regarding dictionaries, I think they are a special case because it is not common practice to read them from cover to cover or for extensive periods of time, or to read them for pleasure or leisure.

Essentially they fulfil a functional requirement that serves other purposes, and searchable electronic databases do it faster.

However, I am very glad for my two-volume New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary of about 3700 pages, which I consider to be much more reliable and useful than free online searchable dictionaries.

Also in the service of my collection of astrological literature I keep a copy of the Oxford Greek-English Lexicon Ninth Edition Revised with Supplement; the Oxford Latin Dictionary; the Brill Dictionary of Renaissance Latin; and the Brill Medieval Latin Dictionary in two volumes.

Some day these dictionaries will be an invaluable resource to a scholar or scholars working with the editions of ancient Greek and medieval and renaissance Latin astrological texts gathered here. No annual licence needs to be paid for to access them. No CD-Rom of limited life expectancy needs to be purchased. No electronic hum needs to be experienced. I can't think of any better environment in which to study old texts than one that is altogether free of electronic noise and similar distractions. Long live the printed dictionary!

The Internet is a wonderful resource and has vastly facilitated access to knowledge. But it has its place and its limits, and the same is true of electronic book readers, which certainly I feel are completely unnecessary to me personally and, frankly, I feel I would be wasting money and tying myself into an undesirable contract if I purchased one.

PS: By way of example, since you mentioned the full O.E.D., I looked up the comparative costs. The cost of an annual subscription for a private individual is ?205. The cost of the complete printed set from Amazon.co.uk is ?675. The printed set combined with the searchable CD-Rom is ?807.50.

Spread over a fifty-year useful working life for the dictionary before a new edition might well be in order, the cost by subscription at current rates for an individual would be ?10250, almost thirteen times the cost of the full printed set plus CD-Rom. At the end of those fifty years, the user, if still alive, would have absolutely nothing to sell or pass on to his or her next of kin. Moreover, by the terms of the single user licence, during those fifty years the user would not be allowed to share his or her access to the dictionary with family, friends or research colleagues.

Economically, the printed edition is by far the better value as well as being more flexible with regard to who can use it. If you are correct in suggesting that it will soon no longer be produced, I might have to think seriously in terms of purchasing a set for posterity. What a shame!

Ultimately to me this exemplifies the dark underbelly of the movement towards electronic books and subscription-based information, which is that it puts control firmly in the hands of the providers and ties us into much costlier contracts with them.

Philip

Mark wrote:Hi Chris,

Thanks. I have removed the link.

It was put up on the History of Astronomy discussion group (HASTRO) by Garry Thompson so I assumed it had the consent of the author. A bit ironic considering Garry Thompson its so defensive of his own copyright on his own site.

Mark

I joined that group but so far couldn`t find the book

Hello dmause,

If you followed this thread you will see the link was removed because this copy of the book appears to be pirated and therefore without the author or publisher's consent. I regret my lack of caution before opening this thread. It would be inappropriate and potentially illegal to openly publicise it here. I therefore urge other members to desist from discussing the source of this unauthorised copy further here.

Mark

Philip Graves wrote: Regarding the forgetfulness reported by Tom and Deb, I think you may very well both be suffering from a case of 'Absent-minded Professor Syndrome', and can rest assured that it is the mark of an intellectual, someone who invests so much brain power into thinking beyond the immediately present physical and temporal environment that details of what is where or when in that environment become easily overlooked. I speak as someone who has often been accused of the same failings.

Wow, Philip! You just made my day! I surely fried too many gray cells trying to teach myself astrology back-when. Chart reading now requires tremendous concentration, and thus the need to prune away distractions. Oh, like remembering where I left my cell phone, or paying attention to my husband.

I also have a much-used collection of astrology books. The problem in my house is that we've literally run out of space to put more book shelves, let alone books. I now store books on window sills, on chairs, and in boxes. One whole closet is full of books on shelves, not clothes. One new volume in necessitates one older volume out. (Yet I do give away books occasionally, and try to acknowledge the public library as a sound alternative.)

But I think my son is buying me a Kindle for Christmas. It might mean only one book out for unlimited books in.