Hi LL
I think I understand the various movements but perhaps not.

[quote]The rhythms, from early Oct. on, clockwise: Virgo/ Mercury anticlockwise: Scorp., rulers Mars/Pluto. The interesting thing is that both Mercury and Pluto are triggered within the seven months following October '29.[/quote]

So the wheel moves in both directions simultaneously, Counter and clockwise? Does this seem to work in your studies, is this what is taught? Also, Mercury Virgo, Pluto Scorpio is triggered by the double motion counter and clockwise.

[quote]Now, according to the "normal" procedure, the conj. of SU/MER/PL is put into effect in January 1930 (clockwise rhythm- go from cusp 6 to 5) - with MER being the ruler of house 12.[/quote]

SuMePl in Pisces become active because Virgo takes over and its ruler is with Su and Pl, correct? Also, with Virgo as new Asc the Pisces planets are now angular. Is that also how you read this when you write about the opposite movement going from 6th cusp to 5th.?

[quote]However, I personally feel that the moment a new house has been reached its lord and further planetes involved (in this case Sun/Merc./Pl) get into action. [/quote]

Yes, that is logical and house ruler might be seen as ruler of time as long as new house sign is active.

Also, are you using quad house cusps and not necessarily whole sign houses. Does one or the other give more constant indications?

I think I understand the timing.... SuMePl put into effect in Jan 1930 since those planets are more or less midway in Pisces- opposite the Virgo period- counting from Oct to Jan.

When using transits have you noted the current rulers transits being more active, indicative of various changes in the ruling period? To be clear, say during the seven month Virgo period gives two rulers. Venus ruling Libra might be considered major ruler, then Virgo takes over, Merc is sub ruler. Have you noted transits to and from the two rulers more active than other transits? Thanks for your time, Michael

Soory, I've been busy...
I think one should not insist on total accuracy when dealing with these rhythms.
As I said, I think the moment a new cusp has been reached the corresponding ruler gets into action.

Michaelb wrote:

When using transits have you noted the current rulers transits being more active, indicative of various changes in the ruling period?

Definitely!

Example:
take the JU/SAT Great conj. 1603 (covering about 800 years - ruling all the JU/SAT conjunctions)
18 th Dec. 1603, 6:55 GMT

As I mentioned you can take 49 years for one house. By doing so you'll get to 0 Aries in mid-April 1861 (anticlockwise) - beginning of the Civil War.

Now, the following one is Septar VI of that basic chart. Being a "normal" Septar it has a lot to say for the time from 35 to 42, in this case from 1638 to 1645. But at the same time this chart is a "Forty-niner" (I call it like this :-) ) - in extension it covers the years Dec. 1848 to 1897. (1st septar = 7 years and 49 years // 2nd Septar 7-14 and 49 to 98 etc.)
When checking the rhythms of a 49r you get 49 months for one house - i.e. 4 years and 1 month.
Both clockwise and anticlockwise.


"49r-chart"


So, from AC to cusp 2 // resp. cusp 11: 18 Dec 1848 - 18 Jan. 1853.
So IC/Mc are reached in late March 1861 - the war started only 3 weeks later - but things started to go wrong in the weeks preceding that.

IC is around 16 Aries. MA is at 22 Pisces, and in addition square AC/DC. As experience has shown the 22 degrees of PIS/GEM/VIR/SAG have a strong Uranian impact (22 PIS = SUN/UR quality).
MA is in house three - and in a civil war both houses , four and three (siblings/neighbours!) are to be taken into account.

MO/PL were met about two years after later - must have been a most
decisive time of that war (Gettysburg? ).
Note that PL rules house eleven and also note Pl at 0 TAU - the holding together of that "stock" was forced - the southern states wre not allowed to leave the Union.

As to transits: MA tr. was exactly conj. UR of this 49er when the war started.


LL

Hi Mr LL and others reading this....
An example to find bombing of Libya comes in next post, but first...

On Astrodienst I found a chart Munich Rhythm Method and a PDF file with a list of Triggers. I am sure you know I have a few questions, smile smile If after reading this and all that I ask below is already posted somewhere on the forum then please direct me to that topic.

Using the 18 Dec 1603 chart 6.55 GMT, not the Septar you present above, I get the following:

0-7 Venus House 12 size and beginning of house explains itself. Then looking down this 12 house list an example:

Mars 3y5m a date ... i hs Sqr A Venus.... Does this mean Mars is in 12 house sqr Antiscia of Venus?

Mars is 4Li17, Venus Antiscia is 2Cap/Can57

So then Mars is moved in clockwise motion up to 2+ Lib to make this square. Have I understood this correctly?

Another example from same house 0 to 7 years, Moon 6y 0m .. date ... opp. Venus2... What does the two and other numbers next to planet mean?

In every 7 year period the order of the planets are always the same. How is that determined? And what is the significance of the triggers list, how is it used.

Please take your time, no hurry, I can wait. Thanks Michael

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Here is example to find bombing of Libya using my somewhat modified version of Septars. Smile smile

This is 32nd Septar for the US Fed chart dated 4 March 1789 00.00 NYC 74w00 40n43 Asc 26Sc56 thereabouts. The Septar chart is dated 4 March 1820 12:38:07 PM same cords. It covers the years March 2006 to March 2013.

This chart gives us seven years to ponder painting a vivid picture the time it rules. It covers many topics. One that sticks out like a sore thumb is, sexual abuse in girls sports. Of course it is now after the fact but one might have guessed prior to chart becoming active a, rise in sexual abuse against women . Moon Mars trine 1H to 5H and Mars sqr Venus. One article I read compares it to what happened in the Church. The indicators jump out in this chart. This is not just a war chart.

The chart covers Entertainment, TV news interview talk shows and the prevailing meanspiritedness at every turn. Sex galore. Female tennis players acting like they want to take it all off on court. Male sportsmen accused of you name it, in the name of sex. Suggestive text messages, mistresses -bring on the gals- and so forth. And in past days news about Arnold. NFL signed a TV contract that would allow the owners to receive TV money if not one play is made on the field in a lock out season. Sounds like a contract by J.R. From TV series Dallas. Main man behind the contract is, owner of Dallas Cowboys, J.R. Rides again.

A closer look shows mortgage banking situation where Moon again is involved, Moon is a fraud used to describe the mortgage situation in many articles. Moon in trine to Jupiter banking etc. Add a pinch of Mars overzealous fraudulent sales pitch lead to easy initial terms and the roof caved in.

This chart provides good example to use Secondary Directions. Note Sun Jupiter conjunction at 10d55m. Was Jupiter at his heliacal rising, making an appearance? Be sure Jupiter was scolded by Sun at last meeting for letting things get out of control. Nearing end of chart via, A Day for A Year, distance comes to 15d28m. Is that the light at the end of the tunnel for banking crisis?

As to Libya bombing, a lot was written about who influenced the Pres. To take action. Few of his female advisers came under heavy critique. I read one article calling them Obamas Lady Hawks, convinced him to take action.

Advisers 9H. 9H from Moon in Scorpio is, Cancer with Mars in Fall Moon in Scorpio in Fall - taking aggressive stance as advisers on Libya situation. The trine Can Sco filled with many ideas choices makes a trine difficult. More problems for Mars, Venus Saturn, Detriment and Fall in Mars sign Aries superior to Mars in Cancer. Five of seven old planets either in detriment or fall in this chart.

Now the boring part as I feel I must explain a few things that I do different from normal Septar technique.

I break down the seven months into smaller segments. Seven months = 210 degrees divided by 12 signs = 17.5d. So within the seven month period each sign changes with the 17.5d movement of the Sun. This gives Major, Sub, Sub Sub ruling signs. Major ruler as I call it is Asc. Sign on the Septar chart. First Sub ruler is one of the 12 signs that rule for seven months. Sub Sub is division of seven month period.

To make it easier, from First house to 12th add 17.5 degrees to Sun. For 11H add 35d, for 10H add 52.5d, for 9H add 70d, for 8H add 87.5d, for 7H add 105d, for 6H add 122.5d, for 5H add 140d, for 4H add 157.5d, for 3H add175d, for 2H 192.5d to the end. I hope I make no typos.

Thereafter I broke down the 17.5 degrees by 12, this gives a Solar timing movement around 1d27m29.9s That adds up to 17d 29m 58.8s so it is only off a second and fraction, good enough.

A lot of boring numbers here but since I wrote this down for myself I will share, that is, the 1d27m29.9s movement.

Lets say the ruling sign at beginning of the 17.5 degree period is Aquarius meaning Cap is 12H, Sag is 11H and so on...... Lets say the position of Sun is 21Ar36 20 when Aquarius took over. This will make more sense if you do the calculations. Don't confuse the position of Sun -sign- with the ruling Signs during exchange of rulership. Movement of Sun is to find date time when new sign takes over rulership.

Add 1d27m29.9s to Suns the degree 21Ar36 20 comes to 23Ar03 49.9 at that date and time is when 12H Cap takes over.

Say you want to know when in clockwise motion from Aquarius the 8H Virgo took over. Add 7d17m29.5s to 21Ar36 20 gives 28Ar53 49.5 When Sun reached that degree is date time Virgo took over.

12H add 1d27m29.9s, to 11H add2d54m59.8s, to 10H add 4d22m29.7s, to 9H add 5d49m59.6s, to 8H add 7d17m29.5s, to 7H add 8d44m59.4s, to 6H add 10d12m29.3s, to 5H add 11d39m52.2s, to 4H add 13d07m29.1s, to 3H add14d34m59s, to 2H add 16d02m28.9s to end that gives 17d29m58.8s of the 17d30m movement. Hope I made no typos.

In short I end up with 7 year ruler, 7 month ruler, slightly less than 2.5 week ruler and 1.5 day ruler.

I use whole sign houses because I determined this is a sign based technique or is how I wanted to experiment with Septars. See examples of Septars from Mr LL who is a gold mine of info and examples to try out on Septar technique.

I read the major Septar chart and determine aggression eventually an act of war should take place. Mars on Asc., good indicator to acts of aggression. Next I must determine the active signs houses. I must determine how the indicators link by sign/house position. Finally I hope I get a correct date, smile smile

Mars is indicator so I choose Aries and Scorpio as prime active houses. The active house from Ar and Sc are Cap and Leo, the 10H from each. What other houses might be indicators? A good guess might be 7H from any of above but especially 7H from Mars signs?

I also may look to other houses because that sign house is natural significator for a particular topic such as war.

I also note sign house of the ruling planet for topic under investigation. While not always in active places the planet(s) may prove active around date of activity for simple fact they are key indicators.

Various signs houses may give additional info such as meeting with advisers 9H, partnerships and opponents 7H and so on. Status, critique obstacles, tensions 8H and so on. Planets in those houses, planets aspecting houses should give info about house in terms of people represented by house, their opinions, temperament, agendas, 6H not to be forgotten when looking for war like situations. All this from Aries and Scorpio - in this example.

For example, in one of the shorter period charts, Aries might be the 6H is potential time for act of war. So this may narrow down the period to say 2.5 weeks, something must happen in that period when say Aries distributes the time by 1d27m29.9s movement to Cap, 10H from Aries.

Ok here follows the example.

The Septar chart has Cancer rising, Mars slightly below Asc degree. Go around the wheel clockwise motion, 1 to 12, 12 to 11 and so on to Scorpio, Mars sign. Scorpio takes over 7 month period starting Nov 2010 to June 2011.

During Scorpio 7 month period I broke down the time by 17.5 degree movement of Sun. This means Aries takes over as sub sub ruler from March 7 2011 to March 25 2011. Bombing took place March 19. Aries is 6H war from Scorpio. Getting closer to act of war. The rulers to this point are Cn Sc Ar.

In Aries period I break down the 17.5 degree period by 1d27m29,9 movement of Sun. From Aries go around to Libra. Libra took over as sub sub sub ruler March 16 when the Presidents U.N. Person Ms Rice told U.N., the U.S., was ready for some Football. Libra 7H from Aries, meeting with partners and as always opponents Russia and China no vote.

A couple days go by when Leo took over on March 19 05:32:36 GMT Leo is 10H from Scorpio an active place from one of the Mars signs, bombs away. The rulers are CnScArLe. Leo rules until March 20 16.45.23 GMT when Cancer took over.

It is not necessary to draw up new charts at each change over. Just move around the Septar wheel when new sign house in Major Septar chart takes over. So for each sign on your Septar chart you may have three dates listed. One when sign takes over 7 month rulership. Two when it takes over for 2.5 weeks and finally the 1.5 day period it rules.

But for various topics drawing up new chart at change over could shed more light on topic by current transiting positions. I would read chart from new ruling sign first. That still leaves the door open to read chart from calculated Asc. Sign to. For example, two paragraphs above Leo took over March 19, the calculated Asc. For that chart is around 15Sg57. Sag is 6H, war like actions, in Septar chart.

Of course this is after the fact. The bombing might have taken place when Aries took over the 7 month period. That might have been the first guess. Aries took over 7 month rulership Dec 2007 to July 2008. Either way, I have only had time for a few examples so when things go haywire in other examples I will learn more and hopefully why it went haywire.

I think this post is to long, did not mean for that to happen. Michaelb

High, Michaelb,

A bit enigmatic what you've written-

[quote="Michaelb"]
On Astrodienst I found a chart Munich Rhythm Method and a PDF file with a list of Triggers.

Would you please tell me where I can find that site?


Using the 18 Dec 1603 chart 6.55 GMT, not the Septar you present above, I get the following:


0-7 Venus House 12 size and beginning of house explains itself. Then looking down this 12 house list an example:

? What place?

I'll have a look at that chart soon.

Regards
LL

Hi LL
[quote="Michaelb"]
On Astrodienst I found a chart Munich Rhythm Method and a PDF file with a list of Triggers.
Would you please tell me where I can find that site?

Sorry I confused you.
Www.astro.com its the same place where you do charts to post on the forum. After you select a chart in your stored data collection (Gespeicherte Astro-Daten), select Extended Chart Selection or Erweiterte Grafikauswahl. Then select Chart drawing style (Zeichnungsmethode:) and scroll down the menu until you see Munchner Rhythmenlehre.

Once the chart comes up select the .pdf at top left of chart. There you get the triggers list.

I could not copy the trigger list that I wrote about, sorry it was so confusing. All the best to You Michael

Hi Michealb,

thank you - well, I should have known what you meant - i.e. I knew that site.
Some additional remarks with a view to the chart above - 32nd Septar.
I'll deal with your calculations later. They are indeed different - but why not? I myself have also tried some additional techniques when dealing with the Septars. (And I do not think that Wolfang D?bereiner, the founder of the Munich School, now 83, would mind - at leat that's what I hope.)

I can only agree with your comments on that chart. There's more to a chart than just politics.
Some more hints: Mars at around 17 degrees Cancer - according to D?bereiner this degree has the quality of Moon/Saturn - which can easily be proved.
You might be interested in this list, containing all the so called Gruppenschicksalspunkte (- scroll down there to get to that list "degrees of collective fate " - sorry, bad translation, I'm afraid) :

http://wiki.astro.com/astrowiki/de/Grup ... salspunkte

Mars and Moon in this Septar in most unfavourable signs, as has rightly been pointed out.

Most important: SAT square NE - with reference to house six - a serious crisis (on the brink to collapse) resulting in social conflicts. Note NE at = Capricorn - a weakening of state and public authority. UR/NE - the process of more or less gradual decentralisation.
Remember that transits in Septars should be heeded. E.g. UR tr. will be conj. SAT and squ. NE again soon:

UR tr. conj. SAT: first week in November this year, second conjunction early January. UR squ. Dec '11. Note that, using the "conventional" rhythm (:-) ), the MC will be reached on November 4th this year, with PL and SAT following shortly after that.
This may well be a decisive, if not dramatic time. (I'm thinking of the US debts ...)

Regards,
LL

Hi Mr LL,

I have been meaning to ask you about the planetary degree combinations you often use.

Such as :::: Mars at around 17 degrees Cancer - according to D?bereiner this degree has the quality of Moon/Saturn - which can easily be proved.::::::

Thank you for the URL. By chance is that list in English somewhere? So far I have been reading by going back and forth at Google translation site.

What orb might be applied to the degrees?

I will take your advice and note the transits. Surprised at what I have found my limited time experimenting with Septars I have not given myself time to look at transits. But I will jot down your suggestions for up coming transits and keep an eye on them.

;:::::::::Wolfang D?bereiner, the founder of the Munich School, now 83,::::::::::::

He certainly gave us an interesting technique, Septars, I hope he is in good health and I wish him well.

::::::: Most important: SAT square NE - with reference to house six - a serious crisis (on the brink to collapse) resulting in social conflicts.::::::::

That puts Astrologers on the spot to delineate. Since the U.S. has been living this chart a few years, would be interesting to read what others in forum think about this square. Social conflicts and 6H, Unions, public health, discontentment in armed forces.......

Thanks again for your time, Michael

Hi Michaelb,

the following short answers will have to do for the time being - I'll deal with your calculations later.

Your question:
What orb might be applied to the degrees?

Preferably half a degree, in any case not more than one.

Translation of D?bereiner into English? Hehe, funny (giggle, sorry) - do you know more than, say, four of five books about astrology that have been translated into English over the recent decades?


As to transits: What counts most of all is the fact that a Septar gives a true insight into a seven years' period - irrespective of triggerings of what ever kind. Which does certainly not mean that the transits are of minor importance.

As to W.D?bereiner - as far as I know he's "alive and kicking" (hope that's not misleading) - still lecturing. He found the Septars (and subsequently further rhythms) in the early 50s.
There's a lot more to the Munich School than Septars. Among others D?bereiner has found a way to find the corresponding astrological degree for whatever place on earth - a discovery that can hardly be overestimated.

As I mentioned a lot more could be said about these rhythms. Among others this one:
As has been pointed out a Septar gives an insight into a period of seven years. In addition to that it may also be regarded as a sort of magnifying glass for the individual houses of a birth chart. What I mean: e.g. the third Septar not only deals with the years from 14 to 21.It also allows an insight into "house three matters" if I may say so - in other words an insight into the ways and means of communication etc. Or: the sixth house may have something to say about the individual's health dipsosition, job life etc....
This insight is not limited to the time that the Septar works as a seven years' chart. E.g. the second chart of the US may tell us something about possessions and social security.

You may do so with the 1789 chart - and you'll presently find Neptune conj. AC: No money in the USA ? Well, who cares: the more debts, the more money the FED will produce...

Second Septar, USA, Const. Chart:
Possibly the chart has an AC of around 3 degrees Pisces- if I take the true local time for the basic chart - i.e. IC conj. Sun - corresponding to 00:10 local time. 2.5 degree Pisces has the quality of SAT/NE - threatening a collapse of vital structures. Neptune will be there the first time in spring 2012. And simultaneously Saturn tr. will be conjunct Neptune of that second Septar - in other words a double portion of SAT/NE. As Andr? Barbault pointed out SAT/NE has to do with rises and falls of capitalism, climax and anti-climax.
By the way, we also find NE antisc. Moon in this chart. (Are the US-people really fully aware of what they are in for ??)

Regards,
LL

Lunlumo wrote: You might find this one helpful:
Hermes shareware:

http://www.hermes-astrologie.com/1hermes.htm

LL

Looks like this link dried up and withered away... (a common occurrence these days).

Lunlumo wrote:Translation of D?bereiner into English?

These are the books of D?bereiner that are available in English:

Textbook of Astrology Vol. I ISBN 978-3-927094-05-5
Textbook of Astrology Vol. II ISBN 978-3-927094-06-2
Textbook of Astrology Vol. III ISBN 978-3-927094-07-9

- The textbooks are almost 30 years old and protocols of his seminars, actually. They show his way of interpretation. They are live, but not very systematic (so for some people difficult to read). Therein the septars just play a marginal role.

Patterns of Experience Vol. I ISBN 978-3-927094-08-6

- Though dealing with parallels of astrological constellations to homeopathic remedies, this is D?bereiner's most systematic and didactically best book (20 years old). Especially interesting in regards to its description of the astrological aspects. Brilliant, very rewarding!

zoidsoft wrote:

Lunlumo wrote: You might find this one helpful:
Hermes shareware:

http://www.hermes-astrologie.com/1hermes.htm

LL

Looks like this link dried up and withered away... (a common occurrence these days).

Oops - what a pity. It is/was really an excellent one...