Hello,

From Kirk,

I wanted to point out that we need to keep in mind that the blended system we work with can too easily lead us to blend long-passed eras and diverse cultures into a homogenous group called 'the ancients'.

This I agree totally! I use the term "ancients" carelessly at times (or rather, most of the times!). I simply use the term "ancients" because it has a certain mystical connotation to it (like the ancients of Stargate Atlantis). The "ancients" could refer to the Babylonian Chadean, Greek, Persian, Medieval Arabic, Medieval Latin or even late medieval astrologers. Must have confused a lot of people here!

Thank you for your posts,astrojin.

according to Mr Schmidt, lot of eros and lot of Necessity also deal with the carrot(venus,desire?) and the stick(Mercury,reason?).

To LibraFeng,

The medieval as well as hellenistic astrologers would look into the three levels of significations (planet, house, lot) as the planet level of signification alone is just too general. As an example, for the subject of marriage we look to Venus, seventh house and lot of marriage (lots of them!). It is only logical to think that desire and reason both would have their counterparts in the lots and houses.

When I first posted in this thread, I was more interested in establishing (wherever possible) the universal or general meanings of the planets and their derivation from the planets themselves free from the signs they rule or houses because I think that the astrologers then would come up with the universal significations early in the tradition (the assoications with signs and houses must have come later because the concept of signs and houses came later). What I mean by "derivation from the planets themselves" is the motion of the planets, their motions relative to each other, phases, speeds, distances, heliacal phenomena, etc. Perhaps I should present this in its own thread.

according to Mr Schmidt, lot of eros and lot of Necessity also deal with the carrot(venus,desire?) and the stick(Mercury,reason?

The Lot of Venus (Eros) representing desire and the Lot of Mercury (Necessity) representing logic/reasoning seems logical if we want to identify the Lot level of desire and reason.

There is a problem though with the Lot of Eros and the Lot of Necessity as there are different formulae for them.

Lot of Eros (Venus):
Paulus of Alexandria, Asc + Venus - Spirit (reverse at night)
Schmidt's correction, Asc + Venus - Spirit (same)
Valens, Asc + Lot of Spirit - Lot of Fortune (reverse at night)
Firmicus, Asc + Lot of Fortune - Lot of Spirit (reverse at night)

Abu Ma'shar, Al-Biruni, Ibnu Ezra and Bonatti list Valens' formula for Lot of Eros.

Lot of Necessity (Mercury):
Paulus of Alexandria, Asc + Lot of Fortune - Mercury (reverse at night)
Schmidt's correction, Asc + Mercury - Lot of Fortune (same)
Valens, Asc + Lot of Fortune - Lot of Spirit (reverse at night)
Firmicus, Asc + Lot of Spirit - Lot of Fortune (reverse at night)

Abu Ma'shar, Al-Biruni, Ibnu Ezra and Bonatti list Valens' formula for Lot of Necessity.


It is better to state explicitly which Lot of Eros and which Lot of Necessity are referred to for desire and reason respectively!