Skyscript Astrology Forum

Still we don't have anything in the tradition about this.

Are you sure about that? Maybe my idea of ' the tradition' is a bit different from yours? I would suggest the myth of Chiron or Kheiron was a part of Greek culture. The myth of Chiron is linked to the classical constellation of Centaurus. If I recall correctly it is mentioned in sources of astronomical myths such as the the Catasterismi of Pseudo-Eratosthenes and the Poeticon Astronomicon of Hyginus. Both these texts draw on much older works. Any classical astrologer worth their salt would have been fully conversant with these star myths. I therefore disagree with both Margherita and Yuzuru that linking the fixed stars to myths is a product of modern thinking. Nothing could be further from the truth.

For example:

''The wisest of the Centaurs, a son of the Titan Cronus. He once entertained Heracles, but when examining his poisonous arrows dropped one on his foot. Because of the unbearable pain of the wound, he surrendered his immortality and was placed amongst the stars as the constellation Centaurus''. (Hyginus 2.38)

This is why the wounded nature of Chiron is epitomised in the alpha star of Centaurus Rigil Kentaurus. However, I agree the mantra 'Chiron wounded healer' can be unreflective. I mentioned it because the mostly modern astrologers I have spoken can relate to this. I use it as a trojan horse to challenge their assumptions. Chiron was was also a wise teacher of the Heroes and a great physician and noted for his nobility of spirit. This set him apart from the wild and generally bestial behaviour of the other Centaurs. This is reflected in the Jupiter and of Venus nature of the stars in Centaurus as listed by both Ptolemy and Anonymous of 379.

Mark

Mythology aside, it can?t be doubted that the traditionally recorded star influences present meanings that derive from astronomically symbolic elements - such as the placement relative to the background constellation figure (hence spears, swords, horns and hoofs are often noted as martial, etc). Not only that, but the direction that these features point in, and how they change throughout the seaons, are relevant to their specific meanings too.
If anyone is interested, tomorrow night I will be giving a live internet presentation which considers the origin of the traditional meanings given to the stars of Ursa Major and the Polar region generally. This features a lot of original research which covers points of relevance to our understanding of all the stars and constellations (and shows how synodic phases were just as significant to the ancient use of fixed stars as they were with the planets).
The presentation will be given tomorrow night (Sat 20 Nov) at 6:00pm GMT as part of the IAA online conference (which is happening now - see details here: http://www.astrologyconference.org/ ).

Actually I?m quite nervous about the fact that I am totally new to this style of presentation, so keep your fingers crossed for me.

Deb

(PS ? I do believe that mythology plays a part in holding star-meanings, but it?s interesting that in my 1? hr presentation on the Polar star meanings, I don?t even mention the Greek myths, because there are so many other relevant factors to consider too.)

I do believe that mythology plays a part in holding star-meanings, but it?s interesting that in my 1? hr presentation on the Polar star meanings, I don?t even mention the Greek myths, because there are so many other relevant factors to consider too.

Hello Deb,

I missed your talk on this at the AA last year so I still haven't heard what your research has come up with. I look forward to hearing your online talk. Of course I wasn't suggesting star lore is all about myths or all Greek. I personally look at myths from various cultures. Plus star lore clearly has links to calendrical, seasonal considerations too that would have been of value to hunters, farmers and navigators. Some of these associations carry on to the Greek and Roman associations for the stars. The phases of the fixed stars was important down to classical times and was regarded as both a calendrical tool and method of weather prediction.

Its interesting you are looking at circumpolar stars. Works like Bernadette Brady's Book of Fixed Stars give all their astrological focus to the phases of rising and setting stars. However, its evident ancient cultures such as the Chinese, Egyptians and Babylonians gave a lot of astrological significance to circumpolar stars. What particuarly interests me is whether your research on the circumpolar stars in Mesopotamian culture can show any linkage to the astrology of the Greeks and Romans?

Here is a recent article on the role of Ursa Major in Ancient Egyptian culture:

http://heritage-key.com/blogs/owenjarus ... big-dipper

Mark

Definitely. In fact as a result of this research I was able to correspond with Herman Hunger and point out that earlier assertions by Hunger and Pingree that the Babylonians had two distinct polar constellations for the plough and the wagon were wrong, and that these were seasonal aspects of the same constellation, which the Greeks knew as the bears. This had been denied in their work because it had been assumed that circumpolar stars, being high above the ecliptic, have no heliacal risings and settings to give them different imagery by phase - but they do have seasonal phenomena which gives them different symbolic aspects (the explanation and demonstration of which is a major part of this talk).
As I said, I present new information based on original research of primary sources, such as the Babylonian omen texts and early Greek works and I look at how Greek knowledge of the stars was influenced by older cultures, and how it has been influential on the traditional and modern-reported meanings. I've never been very familiar with Bernadette Brady's work (not through any lack of respect for what she does because I?m sure she excels in this topic, but simply through the desire to approach traditional sources without modern assumptions in my head); however, there was a lot of revelation for me when I researched this so I think I can say that this is very different from the perspective that she or any other modern astrological text/work on star mythology has taken. (But there is a lot of practical star information too - by way of introduction, and some interesting chart work - don't want to give the impression that attendees won't get useable and interpretational information!)

Deb

PS - sorry, I should have answered your question more directly by saying yes, the Egyptian heritage is very important too. It's not new knowledge that the Egyptians were strongly focussed upon the polar stars, which is where we get our sense of direction and time through the night. The stars of Ursa Major were very important in their rituals and mythology, and again, the different aspects and the way the constellation was oriented held different meaning (for them it was represented as the Bull's foreleg - hoof down it symbolised stamping out an enemy; thigh up it was a spiritual offering, showing subservience to the gods).

Also (in celebration of the approaching Taurean Full Moon), let's remember that the Bull is a solar creature, naturally signified by the Sun (Lilly, CA p.71). I think the Egyptians were more aware of that than astrologers usually are today.

Yikes, Deb!

For the record, I'm a "she," although that's irrelevant to the discussion.

And OMG-- I did say anglophone--NOT anglophobe! I live in Canada, where the terms anglophone and francophone are highly salient.

My gentle plea was merely that people not write off the fascination and rewards of looking more closely at other cultures and languages, as I believe this process adds to, rather than detracts from our understanding of historical and cultural astronomy.

In terms of Arab star names, oh, consider the wonderful name Zavijava in Virgo, a corruption of an earlier Arab name. One interpretation is "the barkers"--suggesting a star heralding other stars or events, just as barking dogs in a medieval Arab village would have announced the subsequent arrival of visitors. Or Sadalsuud in Aquarius--according to Allen, "The Luckiest of the Lucky" because it heralded the departure of winter and onset of the latter rains. This name alludes to the two-season Mediterranean climate, an understanding of which clarifies this fortuitous meaning. But perhaps we name stars more poetically and evocatively in English.

Deb, I read and enjoyed your article in The Mountain Astrologer on the big dipper. I only wondered if you had looked at Jacob Grimm's material on Germanic star lore.The big dipper (Charles's Wain) may have been understood as the wagon of Charlemagne, about whom Europeans had many legends; rather than the "churl's" wagon. My favourite "conductor" of the celestial wagon is the Teutonic goddess variously named Berchta, Perchta, Hel, and Holle; a candidate for the leadership of the "wild host". This host is probably the heavens at turn of the seasons at the winter solstice. Just a great book (that includes northern cultures) on the cosmological significance of the heavens rotating around a north point is de Santillana and von Dechend, Hamlet's Mill.

To me, these forays into other cultures, my limited language skills notwithstanding, are most enriching.

I think I owe you a bigger apology for the 'anglophobe' comment - so let me say sorry again... I did look at the word a few times, but then I also had it in my head that someone else entirely made that post, so I think I answered too early in the morning.
I am very sorry for that, because misreading that word probably made me a little peeved by your post, when I shouldn't have been.
I do understand your point and agree, but I think the bigger problem is that most astrologers don't know the stars anywhere near as much as they ought to do, not by any name. So yes, we should all know, for example, that the alpha star of Taurus is Aldebaran, but we should also associate that name immediately with the descriptive term 'bright eye of the bull'.

The presentation I am giving tomorrow night is based on the same material as the MA article, but I get to use a nicely illustrated powerpoint with animations (and hopefully, if there is time, I can include the Egyptian connections that had to be cut from the TA piece for space reasons). But I'm hoping to take it to a new audience who didn't catch it in print form. To answer your question, I haven't seen Jacob Grimm's material; and even though I've heard a lot about it, and have been told I ought to many times, I've never read Hamlet's Mill. (But the more I get told that I must read it, the less likely that I ever will ) Also, you are right that the term 'Charles's Wain' was borrowed by several monarchs and applied to various historical events, the execution Charles I being only one of them.

It's hard to get everything in because the influence has been so extensive. The topic originally started out as a little piece on Ursa Major that I was going to write in a couple of days for publication on Skyscript - but it turned into a 6 month research project and I had to drag myself away from it at the end because there was an ever-generating trail of new thoughts to consider and interesting sources to explore. But its the same with everthing I do, constantly distracted by new interesting corners to explore - astrology is too fascinating; there's never enough time to get satiated by it. I will say that this is one of my favourite presentations so I just hope I don't screw it all up and broadcast videos of my dogs instead.

Mark wrote:The myth of Chiron is linked to the classical constellation of Centaurus. If I recall correctly it is mentioned in sources of astronomical myths such as the the Catasterismi of Pseudo-Eratosthenes and the Poeticon Astronomicon of Hyginus. Both these texts draw on much older works. Any classical astrologer worth their salt would have been fully conversant with these star myths. I therefore disagree with both Margherita and Yuzuru that linking the fixed stars to myths is a product of modern thinking. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Yes, Hyginus and the Pseudo-Eratosthenes mention creation myths of stars , but which author mention myth in giving judgement about a star?


Maybe it was an older way of reading, but where we find it in written texts?

Some trace we can find in paranatellonta because they are the IMAGES of the stars, and because they came from an older tradition, not exactly lined with the Greek one, but not in Ptolemy and the following astrologers, where stars are grouped according their nature, not their myth.


Allen "Star lore" is a modern book, not a Renaissance catalogue.

p.s. About "Hamlet's Mill" Bezza in Perugia lecture where Deborah was a guest too, did not give a good review- if I understand his words, he said it's just a collection of some Panbabylonist theories without the academical background of Panbabylonists.

margherita

Hello Margherita,

Yes, Hyginus and the Pseudo-Eratosthenes mention creation myths of stars , but which author mention myth in giving judgement about a star? Maybe it was an older way of reading, but where we find it in written texts?

This topic is a full research subject in itself and I dont have the time here to do it justice. Still, I can give a small hint of what I am getting at. Before I seek to give you a further example of what I mean I think I want to reiterate that I was not suggesting star lore purely developed from mythology. I was simply reacting to the rather dismissive comments by yourself and Yuzuru that mythology is an alien import of modern astrology imposed upon traditional sources. I don?t accept that view. The fact mythology influenced star lore doesn't mean it was the only contributory factor. Other elements undoubtably played an important part too. The notion of the planetary nature of stars mentioned by Ptolemy seems to have a Babylonian origin. While Its debateable where these associations come from in Mesopotamian thought naked eye observation of star colours seems to be involved.

Equally, star lore developed with stars or asterisms associated with particular seasons and weather conditions. The Egyptians, Mesopotamians and Greeks all had Parapegmata or star calendars linked to the phases of certain fixed stars. As I see it this is an area that still needs a lot more research before any of us can form fixed assumptions. In that respect my own views are provisional and subject to revision.

In regards star lore it also seems that some Greek myths linked to stars have predecessors in earlier beliefs borrowed from the Egyptian and Mesopotamian cultures who were the revered ?ancients? to the Greeks.

You have a good point regarding the paranatellonta and the associations they have which preceded Ptolemy. Although as I have suggested the idea of the planetary nature of stars is undoubtably much older than Ptolemy too. I would suggest that the kind of astral myths expressed in texts like Hyginus, Pseudo-Eratosthenes and the Phaenomena of Aratus were part of the cultural milieu of the classical world. The fact lots of astrological sources don?t explicitly seek to repeat these star myths is more likely to be because they were accepted as implicit in the world view of the era.

One instance where a myth is undeniably linked to astrological delineation is the constellation of Argo Navis and the myth of Jason and the Argonauts. The link between the constellation and the myth is quite explicit in the Phaenomena of Aratus. Aratus of Soli was a Greek poet who flourished in Macedonia in the early 3rd century BCE. His only surviving work is the Phaenomena, a book describing the constellations and weather signs. We see this star myth used for astrological delineation of the constellation by the 1st century Roman astrologer Manilius in his work the Astronomica.

First the Phaenomena of Aratus:

Beside the tail of the Great Dog the ship Argo is hauled stern-foremost. For not hers is the proper course of a ship in motion, but she is borne backwards, reversed even as real ships, when already the sailors turn the stern to the land as they enter the haven, and every one back-paddles the ship, but she rushing sternward lays hold of the shore. Even so is the Argo of Jason borne along stern-foremost. Partly in mist is she borne along, and starless from her prow even to the mast, but the hull is wholly wreathed in light. Loosed is her Rudder and is set beneath the hind feet of the Dog, as he runs in front.

[342] Callimachus, Hymns and Epigrams. Lycophron. Aratus. Translated by Mair, A. W. & G. R. Loeb Classical Library Volume 129. London: William Heinemann, 1921.

From the Astronomica of Manilius:

The famed Argo, raised to the skies from the sea which it was first to cross, sails upon the depths of heaven it earned for its brave exploits, made a god for having given safety to gods

.

Whoever, is born on earth at the rising of Argo will be the captain of a ship ; holding fast to his helm, he will foreseake dry land for the sea and pursue his fortune with the winds; he will crave to traverse the entire ocean with his fleet , visit foreign climes ..

Men born under Argo are the guides who guide our ships over the trackless deep; it is through them that the land meets the land and the whole earth wares are summoned with the winds to supply men?s diverse needs.

Manilius, Astronomica, (c. 10 AD) trans. G.P. Goold, 1997, published by Harvard Heinemann, Loeb classical library, London.

In terms of encapsulating the essence of the constellation of Argo Navis no star did this more than Canopus , the second brightest star in the heavens and the lucida of the constellation. Canopus seems to have been an important star to ancient Greek seafarers.

The location of Canopus within the constellation of Argo Navis was the oar of the ship symbolising the navigational nature of the constellation. Canopus is is linked to Greek mythology, in particular to the chief pilot of the fleet of Menelaus. Menelaus was the Spartan King, whose wife Helen (of Troy), eloped with Paris and brought about the siege and destruction of that city, known as the Trojan War. In mythology, Menelaus pillaged Troy and regained his wife Helen. Canopus, the brave captain of the king's ship managed to get his fleet safely back to Egyptian waters.

There are a few indications that these Greek associations of Canopus were a continuation of Egyptian mythology. The Greek writer and Roman citizen Plutarch (c46 ? 120 CE) was an important recorder of Egyptian religious beliefs and some astrological associations of the ancient Egyptians. Plutarch travelled in Egypt and spoke with Egyptian priests. Although he visited it when it was already overrun with Greek ideas, he was nevertheless an eyewitness. In his work Isis and Osiris Plutarch states:

Moreover, they (the Egyptians) give to Osiris the title of general, and the title of pilot to Canopus, from whom they say that the star derives its name; also that the vessel which the Greeks call Argo, in form like the ship of Osiris, has been set among the constellations in his honour, and its course lies not far from that of Orion and the Dog-star; of these the Egyptians believe that one is sacred to Horus and the other to Isis

.
Isis and Osiris by Plutarch, published in Vol. V of the Loeb Classical Library edition, 1936, (Loeb p56)

This is intriguing as it contrasts with the commonly held view that Orion was synonymous with Osiris to the Ancient Egyptians which we see in the works of modern writers such as Robert Bauval and Robert Temple. According to this first-hand testimony, Orion was the constellation of Horus. Osiris was identified with both Argo and its chief/pilot star Canopus.

Hello Mark,

Mark wrote: The notion of the planetary nature of stars mentioned by Ptolemy seems to have a Babylonian origin. While Its debateable where these associations come from in Mesopotamian thought naked eye observation of star colours seems to be involved.

True. You are right. Touche?

I would suggest that the kind of astral myths expressed in texts like Hyginus, Pseudo-Eratosthenes and the Phaenomena of Aratus were part of the cultural milieu of the classical world. The fact lots of astrological sources don?t explicitly seek to repeat these star myths is more likely to be because they were accepted as implicit in the world view of the era.

But the meaning was given to the stars became independent from their myth, for example Rigel Kentaurus you mentioned in your previous post is associated with the star which is at the end of River.
This is the way of thinking up to Lilly. Nobody will mention myth because stars are grouped in another way.

As for Manilius and Firmicus they repeat an older tradition, which is more linked to the IMAGES of the stars, so it's obvious they try to describe the image linked with myth of the constellation, that time they did not use medium


Anyway this is not exactly my point. I'm against to use myths which were NOT used in tradition, no problem to use Algol as Medusa Head or Argo Navis as Jason's ship, or whatever case when it is attested.

My problem is adding myths which were never used, or use a distorted version. Rather than using Allen book I prefer look directly to Manilius or Firmicus.
Even if in these case these are not stars but paranatellonta and should be used like paranatellonta should be used.

In a few words, I need a proper source and then everything is ok for me.

margherita

Margherita wrote:

But the meaning was given to the stars became independent from their myth, for example Rigel Kentaurus you mentioned in your previous post is associated with the star which is at the end of River. This is the way of thinking up to Lilly. Nobody will mention myth because stars are grouped in another way.

Interesting. Are you suggesting the star wasn't part of the constellation of Centaurus or simply that its meaning morphed over time? I thought the star at the southern end of the river (Constellation Eridaus) was generally agreed to be Achernar? (Although, Hyginus varied somewhat in putting the star Canopus at the end of the celestial river.)

Margherita wrote:

In a few words, I need a proper source and then everything is ok for me.

Fine. What are your sources for the above statement? My understanding is different. In other words that the bright stars Rigil Kentaurus and Agena along with the stars of the crux belong in the classical constellation of Centaurus. I think this was the understanding of the Persians and Arabs too. The problem was probably that this tradition didn?t make much sense to the Latin Europeans since stars like Rigil Kentaurus, and Agena have a declination of -61 which means they never rise above a latitude of 29 north. Even then they would be extremely low in the night sky at these latitudes. I have also read that through precession these these stars eventually became invisible in Europe. I seem to recall reading they were once observable in Rhodes at 36+. Its therefore easy to see why the constellation Centaurus lost its clear distinction in medieval European thought.

Nevertheless the place of the constellation of Centaurus in classical thinking is not ambiguous. The constellation of Centaurus features in the 4th century BC text of Aratus, and according to Eratosthenes, who wrote of the constellations in the 2nd century BC, the star group depicts the mythological figure of Cheiron: a half-man, half-horse creature who was remarkable amongst his wild and violent race because of his wisdom, gentility and love of humanity.

Manilius's 1st century description of the constellation's influence is in keeping with the nobler aspects of Chiron mythology. He ascribes to it a general affinity with horses and the healing art. In particular, his text describes a proficiency and intuitive skill in the veterinary vocation, for its native:

"? knows how to apply the arts of healing to the limbs of animals and to relieve the dumb creatures of the disorders they cannot describe for his hearing. His is indeed a calling of skill, not to wait for the cries of pain, but recognise betimes a sick body not yet conscious of its sickness."

In the Tetrabiblos Ptolemy tells us that the stars in the upper body - the human part- are like Venus and Mercury, whilst those in the equine part, (which includes the brightest stars), are like Venus and Jupiter.

Following Ptolemy's Almagest the 10th century Persian astronomer Al Sufi's Book of Fixed Stars lists Rigil Kentaurus as in the right foot of the Centaur. The 14th century Greco-Persian astronomer Chrysococca had the synonymous pous kontouros (Greek for 'centaur's foot') The 15th century Mongol-Turkic astronomer Ulug Beg's catalogue also gives this star as Rigil Kentaurus, from Al Rijl al Kentaurus, the Centaur's Foot; describing it as on the toe of the right front hoof, and the 17th century German astronomer Bayer so illustrated it.

Margherita wrote:

My problem is adding myths which were never used, or use a distorted version. Rather than using Allen book I prefer look directly to Manilius or Firmicus.

I agree. Allen's book was good for its time (1899!) but there are lots of errors in it regarding his Mesopotamian, Egyptian and Chinese sources. Equally, his etymological explanations have been criticised by the German modern authority on star names Paul Kunitzsch. Beyond that scholarship has simply advanced a lot in these areas. Its an enjoyable read but it cannot be cited as a reliable source today. Of course that applies to some modern books too. There is nothing like going back to primary sources and thinking for yourself as you suggest.

Mark

Interesting. Are you suggesting the star wasn't part of the constellation of Centaurus or simply that its meaning morphed over time? I thought the star at the southern end of the river (Constellation Eridaus) was generally agreed to be Achernar? (Although, Hyginus varied somewhat in putting the star Canopus at the end of the celestial river.)

no, my poor English I just meant that stars are grouped together for having the same nature rather than sharing the same myth.

Anyway I don't have a problem with your approach in particular, even if to me Manilius and Firmicus are talking about paranatellonta, so we can apply these words only if we use these stars like that.

My problem is more with some reading I see around (not here in Skyscript) from traditional astrologers who just open Allen book (or its internet version) and give judgements which are just based on the myth, but not on any traditional authority, the Anonymous 379, or whoever Cardano, Giuntini, Argoli, Lilly.

Just I don't like this way of doing, I just mentioned in this thread, because I believe it's more important to see which stars have been used rather their name.

Anyway it's true that Arabs "deformed" the illustrations of stars in the Middle Ages, while on the other other representations more directly dependent from Aratus and the older tradition in the Middle Ages kept their form but were absolutely wrong under a scientific point of view.
I believe that Fritz Saxl wrote about this, and recently in October in Genoa, Felice Stoppa who has the wonderful site full of maps and atlases:

http://www.atlascoelestis.com/

talked about the first attempts to re-unite a correct representation with scientific precision

margherita

I just meant that stars are grouped together for having the same nature rather than sharing the same myth. Anyway I don't have a problem with your approach in particular, even if to me Manilius and Firmicus are talking about paranatellonta, so we can apply these words only if we use these stars like that.

Hello Margherita,

I accept using the planetary nature of stars is a key part to delineating their influence in traditional astrology. Its one of the main reasons why I dont go along with a lot of Bernadette Brady's delineations of fixed stars since she completely dispenses with this approach. However, I think a thorough study of the traditional sources shows there are other factors influencing the meanings of stars.

If one accepted your view any star of the nature for example Mars would be completely interchangeable. For example, both Aldebaran (In the constellation of Taurus) and Pollux ( in the constellation of Gemini) are both described as stars of the nature of Mars by Ptolemy. While I accept this tells us a lot about their influence it is not the whole picture. There is a lot of astrological lore which differentiates the influence of these stars. Clearly some sources such as Firmicus do not consider stars as having an identical influence just because they share the same planetary nature. Otherwise why does Firmicus bother to describe Regulus as a royal star? Arcturus has the same planetary nature as Regulus ( Mars and Jupiter) but it is not a royal star. Similarly, I have found the mythology of Castor and Polux very useful in differentiating the influence of these stars in combination with their contrasting planetary nature.

Mark