Mark wrote:

Does anyone here have Saturn in fall or retrograde in their own chart? How does it affect you?

I thought the thread was about a dignified Saturn?

Mark

If Saturn is dignified it is not as "bad" or "mean" as an out of sect Saturn in fall and retrograde as in the case of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Just wanted to flush out a few mean and moody types (might be of help to the mods).

Don't tell me we're all goody goodies.

Tom wrote:I think you meant Saturn squares from Aquarius.

No, actually that should read "with Saturn squaring them from Aquarius.

That Mercury-Jupiter conjunction is right at the bendings - and Jupiter's ruling 8, 9 and 12, sitting on 7 - secret enemies become open enemies become people you kill? Which makes you god - or maybe 9 is the race paranoia.

It may have been Lynette "Squeaky" Fromme, before she tried to assassinate an American President, who said in a hushed embarrassed tone, "Charlie is God." I'm not sure whose idea this was, his or hers.

As you said, Tom, he was a twisted rationaliser. Anything at the bendings is always close to a break-point, in Manson's case, he really went over it.

Not sure what to think of this. My debilitated Saturn is in partile square to the nodal axis.

And it's properly ruling 4 - let's play dysfunctional families.

Charles Manson had the second worst childhood I've ever read about. The worst was Albert DeSalvo, aka the Boston Strangler. His mother was at times a prostitute and that may have been the high water mark of her life.

Once upon a time she had a boyfriend, possibly not the paying kind, and Charlie a young boy at the time, bothered him. He told her if she wanted him to come around she'd have to get rid of that creepy kid. She did. Ahhh Mom.

Planets at the bendings aren't always bad, but they often tend to be focal in some way. Did a quick search on the Net, and Joseph Crane has written some about it, though I think he picked it up from Rudhyar (who swiped a lot of his lunation theory from Aristotle, though never attributed it, and given Rudhyar's style - ugh):

http://www.astrologyinstitute.com/Articles/cycles.htm

Interestingly, Hilary Clinton has Saturn in Leo at the bendings, too. Mahatma Ghandi had Mercury at the bendings. Princess Diana - Venus.

Charles Manson is an interesting choice. It certainly shows you cant just generalise about how a planet will operate in a personality from just one chart factor.

The first thing that hits me about the chart is that Venus combust the Sun. In its detriment , and combust yet angular so this ascendant ruler reinforces the themes of secrecy combined with prominence. It also brings out the control Manson exercised (especially over women). Those of you using quadrant houses can also count Venus as the exaltation ruler of the 12th. Its interesting Manson was also a musician and had links to some prominent figures. Peversely some of his music sold commercially after his imprisonment. Venus squaring Saturn ( Lord 10) has already been mentioned.

Venus is also the natural significator of the Mother and symbolizes his lousy rearing by her.

This from Wikipedia:

Manson's mother was allegedly a heavy drinker. According to a family member, she once sold her son for a pitcher of beer to a childless waitress, from whom his uncle retrieved him some days later. When Manson's mother and her brother were sentenced to five years imprisonment for robbing a Charleston, West Virginia, service station in 1939, Manson was placed in the home of an aunt and uncle in McMechen, West Virginia. Upon her 1942 parole, Kathleen retrieved her son and lived with him in run-down hotel rooms. Manson himself later characterized her physical embrace of him on the day she returned from prison as his sole happy childhood memory. In 1947, Kathleen Maddox tried to have her son placed in a foster home but failed because no such home was available. The court placed Manson in Gibault School for Boys, in Terre Haute, Indiana. After 10 months, he fled from there to his mother, who rejected him.

The other key factor seems to be the Jupiter/Mercury conjunction in Scorpio in the 7th. Jupiter ruling the 8th and 12th. Self undoing, death , combined with a unique dark charisma. While Saturn is well dignified by sign and house it forms an antiscion to Jupiter ( Lord 8 & 12).

The Moon is angular in the 10th and forming a close square to Jupiter and the Ascendant.

The Lot of Fortune , disposited by The Moon, on the IC could be taken to symbolize how much Manson was shaped by his dysfunctional early life. Considering his own lack of a real family life its a cruel irony that Manson styled his murderous group 'The Family'. Meanwhile the Lot of Spirit is closely conjunct Saturn.

Planets at the bendings aren't always bad, but they often tend to be focal in some way. Did a quick search on the Net, and Joseph Crane has written some about it, though I think he picked it up from Rudhyar (who swiped a lot of his lunation theory from Aristotle, though never attributed it, and given Rudhyar's style - ugh):

http://www.astrologyinstitute.com/Articles/cycles.htm

Thanks Olivia. I was aware of this idea before but you have made me think I really need to pay it a lot more attention in future. Actually, Clelia Romano wrote an article on this exact issue last year. As she points out Vettius Valens spends a good bit of book V of his Anthology discussing the malefic influence of the Moon conjuction, opposed or square the North Node. Interested you find this has an influence with other planets too. This seems more reminiscient of the Vedic idea of both nodes being malefic than the interpretation of the nodes by either Bonatti or Lilly.

http://www.astrologiahumana.com/lunar_n ... rology.pdf

Mark

Mark wrote: . . .

The first thing that hits me about the chart is that Venus combust the Sun. In its detriment , and combust yet angular so this ascendant ruler reinforces the themes of secrecy combined with prominence. It also brings out the control Manson exercised (especially over women). . . .

This combustion idea really is a mess, at least the current understanding of it appears to be. I will quote here the beginning of Deb's glossary entry for 'Combust' (with my emphasis). What she has written appears to be the/a/one of many/who knows? common traditional interpretation.

"A planet is combust when it is in conjunction with the Sun and therefore hidden from sight by the light of the Sun. Traditionally this is a serious debility and implies that the planet is weakened or restricted in power. However, if the planet is within 17 minutes of the Sun, it is termed Cazimi - in the heart of the Sun - and considered strengthened by the union."

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/combust.html

This is the opposite of Mark's statement of strength. A combust Asc ruler should make the person weaker, not stronger. Venus, especially, would seem to not be much of a match for the Sun.

One would think that being angular would be a non-issue ? nearly meaningless ? for a planet that is wiped out by the Sun.

UNLESS (As I've recently suggested in 3 other combustion threads) the Sun gains through combustion. In this case it gains much by being associated with the Asc ruler, with the powers and prominence of the Asc ruler being transferred to the Sun. Here the Sun is in the 7th house ? ready to battle it out with others. Maybe Asc ruler Venus didn't get wiped out by the Sun but transferred its power and strength to the Sun. Manson became a solar leader.

This is the opposite of Mark's statement of strength.

Hi Kirk,

I am aware both you and Tom have serious doubts about the whole notion of combustion. I can only state that for myself I still find it an extremely useful concept to work with. I dont really think anything I stated is a total contradiction to the quote from Deb as you suggest. Part of the interpretation I gave i.e. the paradox of secrecy + prominence is the combination of combustion (secrecy/hiddeness) yet the planet is in the open ie angular. I think that is well reflected in a group like Manson's and their closed, cult like nature contradicted by their ultimate world infamy. I think Venus is weakened here because it is in is in detriment, peregrine, and under the beams of the Sun. I dont agree with you that angularity is 'nearly meaningless'. Far from it. It makes all the difference. I have seen many if not more charts where a person with debilitated planets in angular houses is able to operate more prominently than someone with dignified planets that are in cadent houses. Angularity is about ability to act. However, the lack of essential dignity calls into question the motivation behind that action.

The combustion means this person will have have a restricted scope of action. Its similar to the point about electing by the new Moon. In traditional sources it not recoomended to do much of an open , public nature at this time. However, it is the perfect time to carry out secret, possibly nefarious activities if you want to avoid detection.

Mark

The first thing that hits me about the chart is that Venus combust the Sun. In its detriment , and combust yet angular so this ascendant ruler reinforces the themes of secrecy combined with prominence. It also brings out the control Manson exercised (especially over women).

I'm not real sure about the above, and yet, this is a reasonable delineation given what we think about general significators and combustion. First off the ASC ruler Venus is Manson, not his mother. Logically, it can't be both. Secondly he did exercise control over women, yet if his significator is weakened not only by being in detriment but by combustion, there is little power to be exercised, yet we know he did have control over these young, and not so tightly wrapped women. It is hard to fathom Charlie exercising his power over women with any kind of opinion of themselves, but some of these were educated middle class girls. Where does that force of personality come from?

Charlie's power comes from the Sun. The Sun after all symbolizes power and the conjunction with Venus gives him the Sun's power. In other words, combustion is not doing what most say combustion does. The Sun gives its power to a corrupt Venus. There can be no argument that Charles Manson's is a corrupted personality.

Venus and Sun are afflicted by Saturn despite his great dignity. But the Sun is not helped by Saturn being in Aquarius. That is the sign of Saturn's detriment. The square makes things difficult as it is, but this peregrine Sun is not helped at all by the dignified Saturn. One might say it is adversely affected by the strong Saturn due to the Sun's essential weakness. Neither is Venus, but Venus is not in detriment or fall in Aquarius. Charlie is using his Lord of the Geniture's positive manifestations, a gift for organization and structure for corrupt Venusian purposes, debauched sex, drugs and a life of sloth.

Charlie's women I would think, are signified by Mars. Mars rules the 7th cusp (others, partner's, spouse(s)) and Mars is in a mutable sign on the 6th house cusp - the house of his servants. Moderns will note the partile conjunction with Neptune. There is no counter-argument to the charge that these girls were space cadets. Mars is also in mutual reception with Mercury - more duality. There are lots of them. For those who think, as I do, that the 2nd house is self worth, the Mars - Mercury MR indicates how Charlie gets his sense of self worth, through all those women hanging on his words and commands.

Charlie's Mother is Saturn. Saturn please note is on the antiscion of Jupiter in Scorpio. There has to be some excess for her in here somehow. She is cold but Charlie remembers her fondly (Aquarius is warm and moist) perhaps explaining how such a wretched woman can be signified by a dignified planet.

I don't want to turn this into another combustion thread, but I really can't see a debilitated planet rendered weak by combustion as signifying a powerful personality. I can see a debilitated planet gaining power ill used from the Sun. If combustion causes weakness in a planet, I would think a combust debilitated planet would be a plus.

Bugliosi's Saturn also afflicts the Sun and is retrograde. But the Sun is powerful in Leo, not peregrine. It is independent. One might argue that there is a negative mutual reception between the Sun and Saturn (In each other's detriment), but they work off each other with strength, not weakness or one strong and one weak.

Bugliosi's ASC ruler is also combust (7 degree orb), yet he is a prolific writer and was a first class prosecutor - not the things we'd associate with a weak Mercury or weak Lord ASC. Interestingly for synastry fans, Bugliosi's Saturn is on Manson's ASC by antiscion.


Tom

This is the opposite of Mark's statement of strength. A combust Asc ruler should make the person weaker, not stronger. Venus, especially, would seem to not be much of a match for the Sun.

Kirk's post came up while I was writing my last as did Mark's. I almost noted that Kirk would agree with my post, but thought that would be presumptuous. I probably should have.

I think that is well reflected in a group like Manson's and their closed, cult like nature contradicted by their ultimate world infamy.

But this is Charlie's chart - not the group's.

I'm not real sure about the above, and yet, this is a reasonable delineation given what we think about general significators and combustion.

First off the ASC ruler Venus is Manson, not his mother.

I am merely citing the ancient idea that in a day chart the Mother is represented by the Venus. Its not the only thing I would look at. I would also look at the Moon and the 4th house and its ruler (since the father was negligible in influence I wouldn't distinguish 4th/10th here).

Logically, it can't be both.

Check your sources Tom. It actually can if you are counting accidental and natural significators. However, I suspect like Morin you largely dispense with natural significators so I see your point.

Secondly he did exercise control over women, yet if his significator is weakened not only by being in detriment but by combustion, there is little power to be exercised, yet we know he did have control over these young, and not so tightly wrapped women. It is hard to fathom Charlie exercising his power over women with any kind of opinion of themselves, but some of these were educated middle class girls. Where does that force of personality come from?

Charlie's power comes from the Sun. The Sun after all symbolizes power and the conjunction with Venus gives him the Sun's power. In other words, combustion is not doing what most say combustion does. The Sun gives its power to a corrupt Venus. There can be no argument that Charles Manson's is a corrupted personality.

I dont disagree with your last comment. However, you think Venus gets the Sun's power while combust? I dunno about that. Is that an idea of Morin? Personally Manson's charisma is more about the Jupiter closely conjunct the Descendant as I see it. The word 'magnetc' seems a good description of Jupiter in Scorpio on the descendant. Its also conjunct Mercury ( Lord 5 whole sign). However, despite its angularity its not able to manifest in a naturally beneficial way for Manson (Lord 8 & 12 WS) or the women he attracts.

Mark

Mark wrote:

I think that is well reflected in a group like Manson's and their closed, cult like nature contradicted by their ultimate world infamy.

Tom wrote:

But this is Charlie's chart - not the group's.

Yes but it was largely an expression of Manson's will wasn't it? Plus its operating in his 7th house so reflects how he influences the world.

Mark