Huh?

Nobody's denying that the use of gemstones in Jyotish and other ancient astrologies is traditional. It is.

Nor is anyone poo-pooh'ing taking steps to alleviate some of the worst conditions of your horoscope. Many of us do that, and many of us recommend steps for clients to do that. Though not the same kind that you might. Which is fine.

All anyone's said is that the things you've suggested were not part of the pre-1700 tradition. Read the sticky at the top of this board, not just the forum header. This forum is devoted to traditional astrology and traditional techniques.

The only complaint I would have with your methods is that 'joining a dating service', etc. is not a universal panacea, and apparently you wouldn't even look at a client's chart before you recommend it. That gives me pause, but again - it's not a traditional technique.

You're not being persecuted, calm down. You're just posting in the wrong forum.

And I, for one, would much appreciate you not generalising that we all sit around 'complaining about fate instead of doing something' because we don't agree with your philosophy. You don't know any of us well enough to make that judgement - it's just an attack, and a completely unwarranted one.

Actually, I have to disagree with the view that Western traditional astrology did not prescribe remedial measures or was not interested in "remedies". We have to remember that astrology was not something separate from Hermeticism, but it was in fact practised within the context of the Western Mystery tradition, and plenty of remedial measures can be found there.

Also, did anyone mention Nicholas Culperer?

I don't think anyone's denying there are and were remedial measures, alchemist.

The problem may be simply one of vocabulary - a remedial astrological measure would be within the astro-magical-religious tradition - which again, brings us back to prayer, ritual, talismans, gemstones, etc. to hopefully turn the tides in your favour.

This is different to the practical actions you'd take, in, say, horary to bring about a result, or take advantage of some natal proclivity.

Waybread, please dont be disheartened.
Your point was amazing, well supported with academically renounded author's
work.
The concept of choice has been around and you are correct.
Talisman, gem stone was all remedial measures
and like you have said, canoeing can be a remedial measure.
Based on traditional doctrine, and as you have quoted Campion, you can perfectly logically infer that canoeing may allivate your saturn mars opposition.

It was Olivia without any justification impling that you are being "newagey"
She complained of their business empire selling spiritualism but
this was unnecessary and does not add anything to her argument.

Olivia also said that canoeing cannot be an astrological remedy but
yes it can. It is a common sense. And this theory has been the corner stone to medical astrology since Hipocrates. If you are angry or has dry skin or constipation because of
excessive heat, drink a lot of water. Such line of logic arguably can be extended to "canoing may allivate saturn-mars opposition."
Since the principle for both arguments, yours and Hipocrates, are do something for yourself to allivate the evil planetary influence!

In a sense unlike what Olivia has said, Horary CAN fall into 'remedial measures.' Reading CA carefully reveals that how to find a lost object, or how to find a theft, and Lilly also advise a student searching for 'philosopher's stone' of which direction to go and who to look for. Olivia's argument against yours are not supported by documents or bonafide line of reasoning. She also made unwarrented claim "The only complaint I would have with your methods is that 'joining a dating service', etc. is not a universal panacea" when you never mentioned a word panacea or even argued that joining a dating website is the absolute remedy for a lonly soul.

I have studied with John Frawley and just like him I am a hard core traditional astrologer. However, I do not find anything new agey with you Waybread's argument. I actually liked it.

Junibus, thank you! You made my day.

Olivia, there seems to be some confusion.

I am not the OP. I didn't choose this board. I merely responded to the OP. My particular examples are truly in keeping with the spirit of astrology's longstanding tradition of advice to clients on ways that they can actively improve their situations. Speaking to one's contemporary situation is what the ancients did as well, in their own time. If this thread is in the wrong board, perhaps a moderator will kindly move it.

My comments were not entirely directed towards you. You seem to read things into some of my remarks that I did not say and do not mean. For instance, I hardly feel persecuted! Rather, I enjoy a good discussion. I do not believe that joining a dating service is a "universal panacea." And of course, an astrologer is supposed to look at the chart/s before dispensing advice. My comments about complainers were general, specifically not directed to anyone on this board. These go without saying.

But actually, we seem to agree on several points, thankfully! I agree that taking up particular sports as a means of addressing a Mars/Saturn opposition would not be found in a medieval text. Not that a traditional astrologer who believed in some measure of self-determination couldn't prescribe them today.

I'm really sorry about the way this place has gone downhill. It used to be civilised here and I miss that.

Olivia wrote:I'm really sorry about the way this place has gone downhill. It used to be civilised here and I miss that.

Agreed. We could use some moderation here, but until then ...

Waybread, you are remarkably passive aggressive with your disparagement of older astrology while continuing to post here in the trad forum. Don't know whether you're aware that, and don't care; you need to stop, either the pass-aggro or the posting here.

Junibus, you should actually read the thread before posting.

GR, I believe you misunderstand me as well. I have no animosity towards traditional astrology or its practitioners. I regret that I have not made myself more clear. My hope is for a dialogue.

To all:

Here is what Ptolemy (Tetrabiblos I. 3, Robbins 1940 ed.), an apparent stoic, said about the logic of learning astrology so that one might proactively mitigate one's circumstances. I cannot get more traditional than him:

"One should therefore believe that physical philosophers [who] predict what is to befall men with foreknowledge ... do not approach their task under false impressions; for certain things, because their effective causes are numerous and powerful, are inevitable, but others for the opposite reason may be averted. Similarly, those physicians who can recognize ailments know before hand those which are always fatal and those which admit of aid. ....if future happenings....are recognized ahead of time and remedies are provided, again quite in accord with nature and fate, they either do not occur at all or are rendered less severe...
"...with prognostication...its possibilities have appeared worthy of the highest regard, so too in the case of defensive practice, even though it does not furnish a remedy for everything, its authority...should be welcomed and prized."

Ptolemy goes on to discuss Egyptian medical astrology:

"for they never would have devised certain means of averting or warding off or remedying the universal anparticular conditions...if they had any idea that the future cannot be moved and changed."

Ptolemy does not discuss remediation in the form of prayers, charms, gems, talismans, &c. so far as I can determine. These clearly existed in his day and locale, but were not part of Tetrabiblos. He seems to view mitigation as a set of ordinary, practical steps, comparable to not setting forth on a sea voyage when the water is stormy.

So my point to the OP was more along these lines: that yes, astrology does include remedial measures. But particular actions may be more effective than gemstones. If you lose your gemstone, you probably lose the power you believed it conferred on you, because it is an entity outside of yourself. If you develop your inner qualities, you may ultimately have a better course of remediation.

waybread its fine...
move on.. the conversation already went astray from the original purpose.
You have made your point clear and you said what you need to say clearly.
It their merit to think that you are new agey or whatever.
We dont have time to defend ourselves for everything
or engage in frevilous time consuming nit pickings..
lets just read more, and engage in other valuable topics..

waybread wrote:GR, I believe you misunderstand me as well. I have no animosity towards traditional astrology or its practitioners. I regret that I have not made myself more clear. My hope is for a dialogue.

A dialog? To what end? You don't succeed in engaging in dialog as much as you end up pontificating and lecturing. It's not that I misunderstand you, it's that you fail to understand your audience.

<snipped>

I think he was discussing Egyptian medicine, not just their medical astrology btw. Here's a good article on the scope of what constitued their practices. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_medicine

waybread wrote: If you lose your gemstone, you probably lose the power you believed it conferred on you, because it is an entity outside of yourself. If you develop your inner qualities, you may ultimately have a better course of remediation.

But the gemstones don't work because you believe in them; they work because wearing them is a magical act. Though more to the point, it is my understanding that jyotishi advice pujas more strongly than wearing gems, and there is the usual chicanery surrounding selling the stones, which is why they're probably so popular amongst unscrupulous Western jyotishi.

As for developing a calm and courageous spirit that can harness the powers and opportunities one is promised or accept that which is one's due, those are good things without qualification.

I am sorry you don't like my "lecturing" style, GR. You know the old saying, "Old teachers don't die--they just lose their class."

The "audience" for the Skyscript forum is large and diverse. People of a range of astrology backgrounds and interests are reading this thread who have not posted on it. (Can't say as I blame them.) But for sure, if you think there is something I don't understand beyond my alleged personal deficiencies, please let me know what I have missed.

I understand about the "magic" of gemstones, notably of some kind of talisman that one has made oneself, vs. purchased from a mass marketer. This kind of thinking pervades many, many cultures.

I loved your last paragraph.

Junibus, thanks for your good advice. I will take it.