Skyscript Astrology Forum

The failure of using this technique in other charts (many other charts) is the reason why Lilly did not favour this method in predicting life span. Anyway, the method is actually more like a gaugemeter of life force. Some traditional astrologers actually direct hyleg to pinpoit dangerous or climacteric period of a native, which includes but not necessarily death. However, I don't think suicide is one that they would include as climacteric periods though logically speaking, on does not commit suicide unless one is going through a difficult period and the chart should have astrological indications of suicide. Have you confirmed that Van Gogh has the astro indications of suicide?

Hi Astrojin!

According with my study the chart has indications of suicide, but mixed with illness?s traits, since Van Gogh had mental problems. I studied the charts given by ADB* do an essay on suicide, but I put aside cases like Van Gogh, because mental illness need a study apart. But, as far as I can see, he fits the configuration for suicide.
I?m finishing my work and I?ll invite you to give your opinions as soon as it is ready!

Cl?lia

Clelia,

Your article sounds fascinating. Do link to it when you can.

I am still not sure where Jupiter1st gets the rules s/he used on this chart, but that is not really germane. The point is that if we follow the rules rigidly, they work most of the time, but not always.

Astrojin, as usual, makes a very valid point. Sometimes, the longevity techniques simply do not work. What does work in this chart are directions. At age 37, the directed Sun coinjoins Saturn, ruler of the 8th house. Van Gogh's last words were "la tristesse durera toujours": the sadness will last forever. A picture of Saturn in Taurus, the most fixed of all the fixed signs.

Kind regards,
Nina

Hello everybody!

Clelia:

I?m finishing my work and I?ll invite you to give your opinions as soon as it is ready!

Looking forward to it!

jupiter1st:

Moon is in the 6th house. According to the rules she will take away years. Even Jupiter in Sagittarius in the 6th seems to have subtracted years.

There are traditional rules that imply subtracting years if the aspecting planet to the Alchocoden is a malefic and the aspect is malevolent (square, opposition and sometimes conjunction). Are you saying that Moon and Jupiter being in the sixth house turn them evil generally (functional malefics) and hence, as they square the alchocoden they minus years of life or are you working on a different premise? Anyway, if Lot of Fortune is hyleg (I myself did not go through the steps in determining hyleg), Mars (as domicile lord of Lot of Fortune) can?t really be Alchocoden because an aspect is usually required between hyleg and Alchocoden (as Nina mentioned).

Having said this, I don?t think we can use the hyleg-Alchocoden method to even estimate the time of death due to suicide because suicide is a 100% choice made by the native. That a native has suicidal tendency may be predicted from the natal chart (just like any tendency) but the act of doing it is totally his choice. The hyleg-Alchocoden method is used to measure vitality of life. So, some could be killed, murdered or committed suicide when their vitality is still very high. Hence, this method is not really suitable for predicting time of suicide (or even death by accidents, or even death!). It is used together with other methods (like primary direction) to suggest a few ?climacteric? years. Usually we would scan the whole life using primary direction, secondary progression, solar revolution with certain planetary periodic methods (like profection and circumambulation) to churn out a few death bearing years. The death bearing years subsequent to the expiration of the Alchocoden years get highlighted. The fact that suicide can occur during the climacteric years may just be a coincidence as one can commit suicide anytime. The climacteric years show that the native will go through life threatening situations but not necessarily death. The fact that a native who has suicidal tendency commits suicide during any of these climacteric years is a co-incidence because he/she could also commit suicide because of other things like love (which will not be indicated in the climacteric years but rather, in the sphere of relationship as the techniques to determine climacteric years and years where one suffers due to relationship are different!).

There are also people who ?killed themselves? due to organic mental illness but then we would say that the illness kills the native and not the native himself. In the case of van Gogh, we can?t be sure that it was really a deliberate suicide or some mental/organic disease related suicide.

Van Gogh had a difficult life; he lived in poverty, only got to sell one painting! (some said two), had a failed love life, involved in a brawl with almost everybody, had a relationship with a prostitute, hospitalized for gonorrhoea, had mental illness, committed suicide,...

I?ll be using whole sign house system in the following analysis.
Moon is conjunct south node. In medieval astrology, south node ?takes away? from whatever planet it is near to, so it is usually good to have south node near a malefic and bad near a benefic. However, it is not good to have the nodes near the luminaries (as they are the points where eclipse of the luminaries occur) especially south node. Moon represents the mind and emotion. In van Gogh?s chart, Moon is also the lord of the ascendant (making Moon extra personal to him) and Moon is very near south node in the sixth house of illness. Jupiter in its own sign does not help Moon much because he is cadent and in aversion to ascendant and corrupted by south node. It is certainly challenging to have Moon and lord of ascendant (which in his case is the same) in difficult configuration. It would have been better if Moon is nearer to Jupiter than south node. It is interesting to note that van Gogh did try to become a pastor in his early life (Jupiter is natural significator of religion and in his chart Jupiter is the lord of the ninth house of religion) but failed (Jupiter near south node and cadent and in aversion). Lot of Fortune represents the general luck a person is born with. His Lot of Fortune is in Aries and its lord is Mars located in the 12th house relative to Lot of Fortune. This is one indication of one who has a challenging life. It is tempting to say that Fortune is ?burned? because Lot of Fortune is very near the Sun but this is probably not true because Lots are not planets. However, in his chart the Lord of the Lot of Fortune is not only in the 12th from the Lot of Fortune, it is also under the beams.

It is interesting to note that Venus, Sun and Mercury are between the two malefics (Mars and Saturn) whereas both Mars and Saturn aspect the signs preceding and following Moon and Jupiter (tough life!). The configuration is not enclosure/besigement proper but it is close enough to being blockaded, contained or enclosed by sign...

Nina:

What does work in this chart are directions. At age 37, the directed Sun coinjoins Saturn, ruler of the 8th house.

At the same age, the circumambulation from the ascendant has gone into Leo in the term of Saturn. Saturn would have been called jarbhaktar by the Persian astrologers. Natal Saturn is also aspecting that term by square! Hence, this will be a life threatening period (or at least very difficult period) for van Gogh (for a number of years). Saturn is the greater malefic and (as Nina pointed out) ruler of the house of death (8th). Even if you include the 7th as the house of ?ending?, it is also ruled by Saturn. Saturn is also the domicile lord of the Lot of death [Asc + Moon ? Saturn] as the Lot is at 25Aqu. Solar revolution at age 37 (1890) has retrograde Saturn very near the degree opposing the Lot of death (Lot of death = 25Aqu, Saturn in Solar return = 27Leo).

astrojin wrote: There are traditional rules that imply subtracting years if the aspecting planet to the Alchocoden is a malefic and the aspect is malevolent (square, opposition and sometimes conjunction). Are you saying that Moon and Jupiter being in the sixth house turn them evil generally (functional malefics) and hence, as they square the alchocoden they minus years of life or are you working on a different premise?

I'm not saying they became malefic. Yet, accoriding to practice of ancient astrologers planets squaring alchohoden subtract years. Being in the 6th house, both Jupiter and Moon seem to have subtracted their minor years. Jupiter is also the ruler of 6th house. I've examined many charts and found out that even benefics tend to subtract years with harsh aspects. They still add years with trines and sextiles even if they are badly placed. At least their middle years as months.

astrojin wrote: Anyway, if Lot of Fortune is hyleg (I myself did not go through the steps in determining hyleg), Mars (as domicile lord of Lot of Fortune) can?t really be Alchocoden because an aspect is usually required between hyleg and Alchocoden (as Nina mentioned).

I don't know why you guys still think Mars doesn't have an aspect with fortuna. He conjuncts part of fortune . Mars in 26 degrees of Pisces and fortuna is in 2 degrees of Aries. Do you guys think conjunction is not an aspect?

astrojin wrote:
...His Lot of Fortune is in Aries and its lord is Mars located in the 12th house relative to Lot of Fortune. This is one indication of one who has a challenging life.

astrojin, can you explain what you mean by "Mars is in the 12th house relative to Lot of Fortune" Mars is in the 10th house very close to MC.

Let me explain you guys in detail, how I received 37 years of life span for Van Gogh.

Here are the planet positions of his chart

Sun Aries 9?38'24 in house 10 direct
Moon Sagittarius 20?32'08 in house 6 direct
Mercury Aries 25?36'14 in house 11 direct
Venus Pisces 28?02'21 in house 10 direct
Mars Pisces 26?06'57 in house 10 direct
Jupiter Sagittarius 24?16'04 in house 6 direct
Saturn Taurus 15?57'24 in house 11direct
Part of fortune 2 degrees of Aries

His Sun is in the 10th house in Aries. According to Ptolemy, he is Hyleg. Yet, being unaspected, he should give 120 years, both angular and in exaltation. It is not rational to think it is hyleg for we know that very few people live up to that age and Van Gogh had low life standarts. Unlike Ptolemy, Bonatti thinks a planet can not be both hyleg and alchohoden. Alchohoden should have a relation with hyleg. Sun doesn't have a planetary aspect, he only conjuncts fortuna so he can't be hyleg for Bonatti. Moon is in a masculine sign in the 6th house can't be hyleg. So we switch to Ascendant. Since it is not a new moon the hyleg is part of fortune. It is in 2 degrees of Aries. The most dignified planet in the degree is the Sun. He should have given 120 years of age but he didn't. Maybe Van Gogh was born a little earlier than 11 am. It would take fortuna back to last degrees of Pisces and would avoid conjunction with the Sun. It would still be conjuncting Mars, even more closely. Mars, however, even for 11 am, is the second most dignified planet, dispozitor of fortuna and conjuncts! it. Mars is also the closest planet to the corner. (Angular axis) Planets in the angular houses influence our lives very deeply. That must be why some ancients took the closest planet to the angular axis as alchohoden when conditions are not exactly met. So Mars seems to be alchohoden in any case.


Mars is in Pisces, in the 10th house, in his face and triplicity. Although somewhat weak in Pisces, he seems to gain dignity. So he will give 66 major years for he is angular and is not detriment (in Pisces)

Moon Square Mars 5?35
Mars Square Jupiter 1?51
Venus Conjunction Mars 1?55

Moon Jupiter conjunction in Sagitarius, in the 6th house squares Mars.
Moon will take away 25 years. 66-25= 41 Jupiter will subtract 12 years. 41-12= 29

Venus conjuncts Mars. She will add 8 years. 29+8=37

Mars has no other aspects. He exactly gives 37 years.

Jupiter1st,

I wish I had time to unpack your analysis, but unfortunately, not today. Quick note on your question, though:

I don't know why you guys still think Mars doesn't have an aspect with fortuna. He conjuncts part of fortune . Mars in 26 degrees of Pisces and fortuna is in 2 degrees of Aries. Do you guys think conjunction is not an aspect?

Bonatti, whom you have cited, states that "the signs are said to look at each other by diverse aspects" (he is citing Masha'allah and al-Qabisi on this point). By definition, you can only have an aspect in signs that behold each other, or in case of a conjunction, when the two planets are in the same sign. There is no beholding between Aries and Pisces, as they are adjacent signs, so there is no aspect, and no conjunction between them. That is why this section of the forum, at least, may be a bit nonplussed by an assertion that Mars is conjunct Fortuna. I would strongly recommend that you take a look at an accessible intro to traditional astrology; Bonatti's Book of Astronomy is as good a start as anything before heading into murkier waters such as longevity calculations.

Kind regards,
Nina

ninotchka7 wrote:Clelia,

Your article sounds fascinating. Do link to it when you can.

I am still not sure where Jupiter1st gets the rules s/he used on this chart, but that is not really germane. The point is that if we follow the rules rigidly, they work most of the time, but not always.

Astrojin, as usual, makes a very valid point. Sometimes, the longevity techniques simply do not work. What does work in this chart are directions. At age 37, the directed Sun coinjoins Saturn, ruler of the 8th house. Van Gogh's last words were "la tristesse durera toujours": the sadness will last forever. A picture of Saturn in Taurus, the most fixed of all the fixed signs.

Kind regards,
Nina

Hi Nina:

it?s a pleasure to heard from you, since I remember your incredible talk shows about Houses in your site:-)) I must have them in some place of my hardrive untill now.
You?re right saying that the techniques work, but ...sometimes they fail...Perhaps we did not had enough time to assimilate all the threads on this subject. Some books are still being translated.
As Astrojin said, there is a possibility that a direction from a killiing planet to the Hyleg be enough to kill before the Alchocoden years: Montulmo and Valens used both techniques to forecast death: the years given by the Alchocoden and the direction against the Hyleg. Besides this it appears that Bonatti?s statement that it is necessary to the Alchocodem to asepct the Hyleg is not accept by other authorities( Montulmo and Ben Ragel, for example)
We have to cooperate in our studies with our colleagues in order to use in our behalf the opportunity that the internet brought to us. Exchanging ideas with people who studied the same themes is a breath of fresh air!

I?ll let you know when the essay will be ready: and more, I?ll need yours and the others opinions!

best regards

Clelia

ninotchka7 wrote:By definition, you can only have an aspect in signs that behold each other, or in case of a conjunction, when the two planets are in the same sign. There is no beholding between Aries and Pisces, as they are adjacent signs, so there is no aspect, and no conjunction between them.
Nina

But what about Serapio (from Schmidt Tares):

"That if one of the stars chances to be in the first three degrees of an image it has its power in reference to the image behind, just as again if one of the stars chances to be in the last 3 degrees of an image, it has the power of its rendering in relation to the next image..... If some star chances to be upon the section of 2 images, it is quite powerful and immoderate in regard to its working."

To be honest Schmidt does not read like that, but that's his opinion, because in Cieloeterra they read plainly like that, at least I sent it from one of them. There is a relationship between two planets between the two signs, but there is something of immoderate, my friend used the same word as Serapio.

margherita

Having said this, I don?t think we can use the hyleg-Alchocoden method to even estimate the time of death due to suicide because suicide is a 100% choice made by the native. That a native has suicidal tendency may be predicted from the natal chart (just like any tendency) but the act of doing it is totally his choice. The hyleg-Alchocoden method is used to measure vitality of life. So, some could be killed, murdered or committed suicide when their vitality is still very high. Hence, this method is not really suitable for predicting time of suicide (or even death by accidents, or even death!). It is used together with other methods (like primary direction) to suggest a few ?climacteric? years. Usually we would scan the whole life using primary direction, secondary progression, solar revolution with certain planetary periodic methods (like profection and circumambulation) to churn out a few death bearing years

Hi Astrojin:

We are in the same page , but I selected the topic above because I?m unsure if it is a valid point.
My study on suicide does not deal with life expectancy ( a shame! but it is already big enough without dealing with this kind of matter), but in principle I?m prone to accept that even love can be a climaterical time: passion especially, since it is an emotion near of suffering.

Perhaps later in my life, when and if I?ll feel confident enough to work with life expectancy I?ll try to link the two difficult subjects and perhaps get the definitive proof that suicide ( even planned by the native) was not a result of pure free will.
Let me say that I believe that we have some free will, but a very limited one.
It?s a philosofical question, but I think that if God created all this we see and live and this is harmonic,( and death and destruction are part of the harmony), how can we be such powerful in order to change dramatically the scenery?

best wishes

Cl?lia

Hello,

jupiterfirst:

I don't know why you guys still think Mars doesn't have an aspect with fortuna. He conjuncts part of fortune . Mars in 26 degrees of Pisces and fortuna is in 2 degrees of Aries. Do you guys think conjunction is not an aspect?

I do not use across sign conjunction or aspect unless they are very close; 3-4 degrees.

astrojin, can you explain what you mean by "Mars is in the 12th house relative to Lot of Fortune" Mars is in the 10th house very close to MC.

I am using whole sign house system.

There are many basic "issues" here when we apply this hyleg-alchocoden technique. Most important is, of course, the house system. Bonatti probably uses Alchabitius house system and he uses planetary orbs (and moieties). There is the question of whether he would still use the same orb for across sign aspects and conjunction. Bonatti also wants us to use all 5 dispositors (domicile, exaltation, triplicity, term and face) of hyleg as candidates of alchocoden. Others argue that we should limit to only domicile and exaltation. Still others who say that the lower dignities can be used provided that two of the lower dignities are the same planet (modeling his concept of reception) because they would want the alchocoden to not only aspects the hyleg bu also receives him.

Adding these basic issues to the diverse methods of determining hyleg and alchocoden gives us as many methods as there are astrologers! (Yes, I may be exagerating a little bit but it's not far from the truth). No wonder Lilly complained and Frawley just throw this method out of the window altogether.

An interesting question then on the method of determining hyleg as outlined by Bonatti:
He says that if Sun and Moon cannot be hyleg, we will have to see whether the native belongs to waxing or waning birth. If the native is of waxing birth (pre-natal syzygy is new moon), ascendant is to be considered as the next in hierarchy for the determination of hyleg then Lot of Fortune. If the native is of waning birth (pre-natal syzygy is full moon), Lot of Fortune is to be considered as the next in hierarchy as hyleg candidate, then ascendant. WHY?

Hi Asrtrojin:

An interesting question then on the method of determining hyleg as outlined by Bonatti:
He says that if Sun and Moon cannot be hyleg, we will have to see whether the native belongs to waxing or waning birth. If the native is of waxing birth (pre-natal syzygy is new moon), ascendant is to be considered as the next in hierarchy for the determination of hyleg then Lot of Fortune. If the native is of waning birth (pre-natal syzygy is full moon), Lot of Fortune is to be considered as the next in hierarchy as hyleg candidate, then ascendant. WHY?

The Moon waxing has more power than the wanning Moon. The native which has a conjunctional Moon is able to have the ASC as Hyleg , I imagine that it is because the chart shows more vitality and we can believe more in the ASC ( but Bonatti does not explains that).
In the other case, when the Moon was preventiona,l the Fortune, since the Fortune is named the Lunar Ascendant, is a better choice ( Bonatti explains to this point). I understand that because the POF is a mix of the Sun, the ASC and the Moon , so the POF in this cases is more fit to be the Hyleg.

Cl?lia