Thanks for your input, Tanit.

So you would say that Mars in his triplicity hasn't really help mitigate his debility?

You say your Father was quite cutting verablly? I find it interesting that Mars is in the bounds of Mercury, that kinda adheres to the principle I mentioned earlier.

So you would say that Mars in his triplicity hasn't really help mitigate his debility?

Triplicity is just not as strong as fall is a debility and I can't see it working in a positive way, other than maybe providing him with many children even though his wife was supposed to be barren (a doctor told her she could not have any children and she has Saturn ruling her 5th, also in Cancer)? He was a bit of a dreamer that could never execute whatever it was that he wanted to do, and he never finished projects, so I think Mars in debility made it more difficult for him to get what he wanted out of life. There is a sideways way of going about things when it comes to Cancer whereas Mars is supposed to be very direct. In his hobbies (5th house) he never seemed to finish things, or obsessed with them greatly for a while and moved onto something else that caught his eye. He was likely manic-depressant and would be up for several days and then crash into depressions.

I also see his Mars in Cancer with the Moon sextile in Virgo acting more as a square through signs of long ascension.

You say your Father was quite cutting verablly? I find it interesting that Mars is in the bounds of Mercury, that kinda adheres to the principle I mentioned earlier.

Yes, he was relentless sometimes in his verbal abuse and always had to have the last word. I would not say his abuse was quick and cutting (since you are dealing with water and a night chart?), but quite lengthy, manipulative and especially repetitive. His ability to take offense was very quick/premature, though (he was over-sensitive to criticism or someone disagreeing with what he had to say). Obviously he was very intelligent (classified as genius), but his emotional stablity was lacking. I have noticed that Mars in Cancer has been around in charts of manic depressants I have known, but I am sure that is not always the case.

Konrad wrote:Hi,

I've been doing a little bit of thinking about planets in detriment or fall but who are also in their dignities. In my mind, I have kind of likened it to an army being in enemy territory but in a temporary fort ala the Romans.

It would make sense to me that the planet will still manifest its corrupted traits but with, perhaps, some moments of clarity like a drunk who realises what they are doing for a few brief moments or some periods of time in which the situation is good for the native like a desert traveller at an oasis.

Not being too experienced practically in natal astrology, I was wondering what you all had to add to this kind of positioning?

Not sure about natal but in horary astrology a peregrine planet is far worse than a planet in its Detriment/Fall but in its lesser dignities.

Jupiter cadent & peregrine "promises little" as they say whereas in its Detriment/Fall but, say, in its own face it is stronger.

Not sure about natal but in horary astrology a peregrine planet is far worse than a planet in its Detriment/Fall but in its lesser dignities.

I don?t agree with this statement at all. Is this your opinion or are you quoting a traditional source?

yuzuru wrote:

Not sure about natal but in horary astrology a peregrine planet is far worse than a planet in its Detriment/Fall but in its lesser dignities.

I don?t agree with this statement at all. Is this your opinion or are you quoting a traditional source?

It is my opinion and it works for me. Don't get me wrong, a peregrine planet does not automatically mean things are bad. But without a mutual reception I would not count on it too much.

If you want a traditional source, Christian Astrology II:

"A Planet Peregrine, viz. having no essentiall Dignities where he is, he is malicious beyond expression; if he be in essentiall Dignities, the lesse; for then he is like a noble soule that hath his enemy in his clutches, but scornes to hurt him."

If I remember correctly Lilly lists Retrogradation, Combustion, Peregrine, Detriment and Fall as Debilities. In his calculations he uses "-5" for both Detriment and Peregrine.

According to Lilly's table: Fall -4, Detriment -5, Peregrine -5.
Fortitudes: Triplicity +3, term +2, Face +1.

So technically any planet in its Detriment/Fall but in any of its lesser Dignities is stronger than being peregrine.

Sorry, I know I'm being a pain in the rear end with all this but it is what it is. I have seen quite recently Venus in 11th house in her Detriment/Face performing better than Jupiter in the 3rd house peregrine even with a reception (not mutual).

I don't agree about planets being peregrine in horary being less able to perform than those in fall or detriment. Performance in what way exactly? Any planet can perform if given enough accidental dignity, but the question in my mind is more so if a planet in fall or detriment does so in a destructive way or in a way that does not benefit the person or others. If you put a peregrine, fall or detriment planet on an angle is this going to be a planet that doesn't "perform?" Does it do nothing at all? I would think not with such accidental power.

If Jupiter was more unsuccessful in some way in the 3rd and peregrine vs. a planet in the 11th in detriment or fall one might wonder about other things going on in the chart on top of this, but also that the 3rd is a cadent house vs. the 11th being a much more benefic house that is also suceedent. The 11th is a "lucky" house, where even a planet in detriment or fall can get the job or what have you when they are not qualified or do underhanded things (as Deb talks about in her horary tutorial). Cadent houses are "fallen" houses, even if the 3rd sextiles the ASC.

Supposedly a peregrine planet knows how to be both ill and good, and it often chooses to do ill, but I don't see it bringing anything quite so destructive, painful, resentful, regretful, etc. as the planets in fall or detriment.

Every situation is different, because you're dealing with different planets (the malefics when ill are at their worst, for example, and typically they are already trouble as it is) and accidental dignity/debility situations, but the main issue I find with peregrine planets in horary in particular is that they have no clear direction on what it is they are seeking. They have no plan, no expectations... they wander around. Obviously it's hard to get what you want when you wander around aimlessly. But how is that quite so bad as a planet in detriment, which as people like Dykes would say is inherently "wicked," "social bizarre," and "disintegrated," etc. A planet in fall often feels rejected, cast aside, etc. and can react in a negative way because it feels so dejected. That's why I mentioned Mars in Cancer having an overly sensitive response to criticism. It might expect it and it might bring up old feelings of resentment and anger.

Tanit wrote:I don't agree about planets being peregrine in horary being less able to perform than those in fall or detriment. Performance in what way exactly? Any planet can perform if given enough accidental dignity, but the question in my mind is more so if a planet in fall or detriment does so in a destructive way or in a way that does not benefit the person or others. If you put a peregrine, fall or detriment planet on an angle is this going to be a planet that doesn't "perform?" Does it do nothing at all? I would think not with such accidental power.

I agree with you.

For example Lilly reads peregrine planets as thieves. They can work but not in a proper and convenient way.

There is nothing worst than peregrine or planets in the angle not dignified or against their sect in my opinion.

Obviously being at the angle - especially at Asc or MC- they work a lot, but in the "wrong" way I would say.

For example I met many examples of detrimental or peregrine Jupiter in an angle: the native is full of silly vanity, self importance, empty arrogance, desire to have the last word on the matter.

About malefic planets others have already talked in this thread,

margherita

I think its useful to bring such theoretical discussions back to real charts. It was natal not horary astrology that Konrad was asking about at the start of this thread so I prefer to stick with that. I know its controversial but I have real doubts that the use of dignities in horary/electional translates that smoothly to natal charts. Human beings are an evolving process not a single event/question. I think dignities need a more subtle and flexible understanding in natal astrology.

Exhibit A. Tennis Champion Roger Federer. Federer has Mars in Cancer which is in fall, and out of sect and ruling his 3rd/8th house, and located in the 11th. His Moon is out of sect and in fall in Scorpio and Venus (in the 1st) is out of sect in its fall in Virgo. Mercury (ruler of the ASC +MC) is combust the Sun, peregrine and in the 12th house. Yet he certainly seems to be someone who has achieved just about everthing he has set out to achieve professionally in the international spotlight.
Mark

Hello Mark

Mark wrote: It was natal not horary astrology that Konrad was asking about at the start of this thread so I prefer to stick with that. I know its controversial but I have real doubts that the use of dignities in horary/electional translates that smoothly to natal charts. Human beings are an evolving process not a single event/question. I think dignities need a more subtle and flexible understanding in natal astrology.

I should disagree 100% Do you know some source where two different sets of rules are mentioned, one for horary and the other for natal astrology?

This is Ptolemy:

For the magnitude of the event we must examine their power and observe whether they are actively situated both in the cosmos itself and in the nativity, or the reverse; for they are most effective when, with respect to the cosmos, they are in their own or in familiar regions, and again when they are rising and are increasing in their numbers; and, with respect to the nativity, whenever they are passing through the angles or signs that rise after them, and especially the principal of these, by which I mean the signs ascendant and culminating.

Exhibit A. Tennis Champion Roger Federer. Federer has Mars in Cancer which is in fall, and out of sect and ruling his 3rd/8th house, and located in the 11th.

You could be nastier. It took me a little to discover who Federer is (I don't like sport at all), but you could mention for example one of the greatest champions of all times, which everybody know, Diego Maradona, with Mars in Cancer.

Federer in a way is a very easy chart to solve.

To be honest I cannot say very much about the detrimental Virgo Venus in the first house, likely she acts in Federer private life, or maybe other can say better than me.

About sport and tennis, it's true that Mars is in Cancer, but not in angle.

At Midheaven Lepus is going to culminate, which is traditionally associated with athletes and games.

Firmicus writes: "Lepus, the Hare rises in the 7th degree of Gemini. Those who are born when this star is rising will be of such lightness of body that when they begin to run they seem lighter than birds" (VIII,8_)

In a very old post of mine I translated the comment of Prof. Simonetta Feraboli, my favourite scholar on paranatellonta and stellar catalogues about the corresponding Manilius extract.


She says:

Speed depends both of the constellation characteristic and from Mercury?s domicile, the swifter planet in its revolution around the Sun, while agility, lightness, mobility are in agreement with Gemini. The reference to wings and flight can be connected with the opposite sign, Sagittarius, which is winged and showed as a hawk in the dodekaoros. ?..Limbs of a native born with the Ascendant on Lepus, even wingless, participate of the Air of Gemini. It?s not a coincidence that the first three degress of Gemini vocatur Ventus (Liber Hermetis). All the athletic sports are favourite in Mercurial signs, especially Gemini, one of them is Heracles. ?.Mercury well beheld with Lepus makes conjurers and players with ball.

http://heavenastrolabe.net/stars-trade- ... linations/

In this chart Mercury, ruler of the MC is a natural choice for activity ruler together with Mars, ok.

Mars here is in Cancer, true, but quite fast and strong, it had its heliacal rising the middle of July.

Together, from the eleventh house they rule activity, while Jupiter ray to Mars favors success.

Still Firmicus:

"Those who have Mercury with Mars in the 11th house always perish in battle (hope this is not the case). They are lovers of gymnasium,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnasium_ ... Greece%29
others of arms, but all are brave in counsel and attain great success. " (III,11)

p.s. on the other side I can show you the chart of a thoughtless woman with Mars in Cancer in the first house, who eventually lost her royal head on the guillotine

margherita

Mark wrote:I think its useful to bring such theoretical discussions back to real charts. It was natal not horary astrology that Konrad was asking about at the start of this thread so I prefer to stick with that. I know its controversial but I have real doubts that the use of dignities in horary/electional translates that smoothly to natal charts. Human beings are an evolving process not a single event/question. I think dignities need a more subtle and flexible understanding in natal astrology.

Exhibit A. Tennis Champion Roger Federer. Federer has Mars in Cancer which is in fall, and out of sect and ruling his 3rd/8th house, and located in the 11th. His Moon is out of sect and in fall in Scorpio and Venus (in the 1st) is out of sect in its fall in Virgo. Mercury (ruler of the ASC +MC) is combust the Sun, peregrine and in the 12th house. Yet he certainly seems to be someone who has achieved just about everthing he has set out to achieve professionally in the international spotlight.

Mark

Some weird synchronicities here, Mark! I've been looking at sports players and coaches the last couple of days, trying to figure out the predictive techniques in relation to career highs and lows and I looked to this very chart. Obviously I had to delineate the charts first and after a couple of hours of looking at this, I came to the conclusion that the time given for Federer's chart is in error. It just doesn't seem like the chart of the best player ever in his chosen sport who is a household name in his field and outwith it. The woman who runs Gryphon astrology blog says that this time was from Federer's own site but I could not find any information of a time of birth on there.

I am sorry if this is off topic, but the tennis champion is a very young man that we know little about. On a surface level I am sure it is easy to make conjectures about the success and happiness of a person, but in using people who you know very little about, it is hard to come to solid answers. I prefer to look at your everyday person's charts, such as clients that have shared their personal issues, friends, family members, and also the astrologer's own interpretation of their chart. I don't believe what one shares with the press is going to be the most honest and useful information astrologically. I suppose after a person dies and there have been numerous biographies and what have you it is more enlightening, but a 30-year old just seems very young to me and likely has a lot more living to go through.

I do believe there should be a reason for his Mars being in Cancer and not say Capricorn or Aries, and based on the information provided I don't see that. When one is a professional of the planet in question and it is in fall, I would be very concerned that there could be a fall from grace in the career, for example, or if it's in the 11th it could represent troublesome issues with friends and what have you. Maybe an injury leads to a premature end of his career, as happened to someone I knew with a similar chart and Mars in Cancer in the 9th. He was a dancer that had a fall. He was also a closet homosexual and his emotional stability, to me at least, seemed in question. He was also manipulative and tried to sabotage a friend's caeer in an underhanded way. I wouldn't be surprised if many celebrites who go through social embarrassments have noteable planets in fall. I don't care how seemingly successful a person is, that doesn't mean their personal life or other goals outsude of career are being realized. It also doesn't mean they gain success in an honest and open manner.