But I think I and others overlooked the possible Venus trine Saturn as insignificant in this horary.

Hi Clinton:

You're right--we probably should have given more weight to this. Saturn is almuten of AC and the most essentially dignified planet in the chart. There is also a mutual reception between Saturn and Venus--domicile to triplicity. Saturn is in a cadent house, but it happens to the house of his joy--so perhaps he is more free to act there than many planets would be.

I would still say, though, that a benefic in the 8th house all by itself does *not* testify to a positive outcome. In this particular case, because the benefic planet aspects another relatively powerful and functionally benefic planet (Saturn dignified can be a functional benefic), the outcome is positive. The aspect shows that the money comes back to the querent

I am happy for the querent that things worked out to some degree.

LP

Seiko:

"What is the connection between the Querent and the borrower? Are they friends, colleagues, relatives, neighbors?"

Only a business partner, and a lower form with the 7th's lord/borrower in the 8th.

Konrad

"I had a horary involving money which was resolved positively in which Saturn received Venus' trine:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6229

I don't think house almutens are given enough of a weight in some horary judgements. "

Your horary was simple in that it was your money, the 2nd, and the lord being Venus as the quesited; easier to understand.

Leo-Poet

"Quote:
But I think I and others overlooked the possible Venus trine Saturn as insignificant in this horary.

Hi Clinton:

You're right--we probably should have given more weight to this. Saturn is almuten of AC and the most essentially dignified planet in the chart. There is also a mutual reception between Saturn and Venus--domicile to triplicity. Saturn is in a cadent house, but it happens to the house of his joy--so perhaps he is more free to act there than many planets would be.

I would still say, though, that a benefic in the 8th house all by itself does *not* testify to a positive outcome. In this particular case, because the benefic planet aspects another relatively powerful and functionally benefic planet (Saturn dignified can be a functional benefic), the outcome is positive. The aspect shows that the money comes back to the querent "

Leo-Poet and others on this great Forum who have read or contributed, in talking with the querant last night I found out the querant got most of thier money back and hired someone from Temporary Labor who was a large man to carry a cam-recorder camera and that intimidated the borrower into dealing with the querant. It has come to my attention the borrower had said they would give some stocks to the querant which never happened nor has a full repayment been made as of yet. The querant had to spend more money by hiring the video support and large guy to retrieve most of the money owed.

Mars lord of the borrower was clearly symbolized in Caput Argol's cjt. to Mars. Very symbolic with a current film and novel by Lewis Carrol, 'Alice in Wonderland' where the cliche "off with thier head" was said by the Queen. The querant wanting to off the borrower's head in a strong sense.

Querant confided the communication was indeed hostile showing the Moon opp Mercury and Mercury combust the Sun.

For the natal Sco Sun and natal Libra asc., was seeking both justice and possibly revenge as they have expressed satisfaction in only most of the money recovered.

Clinton Garrett Soule

PS. This clearly was one of those horarys that shows we need to understand Lilly and the Ancients more thoroughly!

The querant had to spend more money by hiring the video support and large guy to retrieve most of the money owed.

I think the outcome still fits the horary. One would expect to get nothing back or very little, or at least have to work very hard at getting the money back - there is nothing easy or particularly positive about this chart. Obviously the borrower didn't go up to the querent and easily hand them the money, the querent had to force them to give it back.

The chart you have posted is now different, by the way - it's from 1984.

Thanks for the feedback, Clinton

I think this example clearly shows that almuten of a house in question can play an important role and exert much more influence than commonly believed/taught in horary. In fact, I underestimated it when I wrote that Venus/Saturn applying trine might show a smaller amount of money returned.
From now on, I'll pay much closer attention to almutens/exaltation lords.

Regards,
Goran

Clinton Soule wrote:
Konrad

"I had a horary involving money which was resolved positively in which Saturn received Venus' trine:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6229

I don't think house almutens are given enough of a weight in some horary judgements. "

Your horary was simple in that it was your money, the 2nd, and the lord being Venus as the quesited; easier to understand.

Your horary was simple too: Venus lord of the 8th applies by trine with mutual reception to almuten of the querent.

1) The hyperlink directs to a wrong chart

2) I did a lot of charts in one specific field and trust me you should not introduce all kinds of things because something does not fit. Horary is simple so keep it that way. In a YES/NO question, if there is a clear YES, great, if there isn't a clear YES is there a clear NO? If there's neither a clear YES nor a clear NO, then the answer is I DON'T KNOW. There are a few exceptions, though but you must make sure that 'the sideshow testimony' works.

That specific area which I mentioned involves money so I just can't tell people "you know according to the book I read I think it's gonna be OK. Oh, it wasn't OK? Well, that's my bad."

There are things people don't tell you or the real question is different from the propounded one. Not saying this is the case here but if you see the chart is not very cooperative you should ask the Querent a few questions. If it still is hardly readable then there's nothing much you can do unless you want to guess. You can't interpret every single chart in the world but thankfully most of them are radical (in terms of readability).

Frawley is so right when he says that Astrology is not for us to boss around, it is a miracle that we can predict anything at all.

Tanit said:

I think the outcome still fits the horary. One would expect to get nothing back or very little, or at least have to work very hard at getting the money back - there is nothing easy or particularly positive about this chart. Obviously the borrower didn't go up to the querent and easily hand them the money, the querent had to force them to give it back.

The chart you have posted is now different, by the way - it's from 1984.

Thanks Tanit, I didn't realize if one used that chart and edited for other purposes it would change things: talking about Mercury being rated R at the moment!

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?lang ... r=1&nho2=1

As zealous as we are to understand Traditional Horary the facts are most like Lilly and before were Traditionalists although Lilly talks about Moderns in his time or Modernes such as Yohanness Kepler I believe or in some instances John Gadbury. We all are in fact Contemporary Traditionalists in that we actually are living after 1800.

Tanit I think I found what all of us aparently overloooked on this one in that on page #174 of CAII Lilly says:

"If the Lord of the Ascendant and the Moon be joined to a Fortune that has Dignity in the Signe ascending, or Signe intercepted in the Ascendant, the matter will be effected; or if any of them be joyned to an Infortune who hath dignity in the Ascendant, and that Infortune receive the Lord of the Ascendant or the Moon, the business will be dispatched:.... "

Tanit and adept Forum members, the Asc. lord, Venus doth trine Saturn, which although Not actually in the Asc., yet the 12th, Saturn is essentially exalted in Libra. That has to be why this chart played out partially for the querant as the querant got most of what was borrowed returned.

Venus being the asc. lord was Not what I was looking for as Mers as the querant's 2nd lord was without aspects.

Another important factor, the Moon had recently been full, within hours, and Guildo Bonatus claims '...the lord of the sign where the most recent Full Moon was, if in the house of the quesited or angles the matter will manifest' I hope I am understanding that principle from Guildo's 'The Astrologer's Guide' wrote by Lilly in 1665.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Another important factor, the Moon had recently been full, within hours, and Guildo Bonatus claims '...the lord of the sign where the most recent Full Moon was, if in the house of the quesited or angles the matter will manifest' I hope I am understanding that principle from Guildo's 'The Astrologer's Guide' wrote by Lilly in 1665.

I think you're referring to the 70th consideration, right?

70. The 70th Consideration is, To mind another secret; not well searched into by Astrologers, but often times doing them much prejudice; that is, see in all Questions, etc., whether the Lord of the New or Full Moon, preventional last before, be in any of the Angles of the thing enquired after; if it be, it denotes that the business will be accomplished, unless it be the Querent?s own fault (or that God overrule against it),though perhaps by other significations it seemed not likely. But if it shall not happen so but only the same is in the Ascendant; and the other significators that is, The Lord of the Ascendant of the thing enquired of and the Moon, or any of them assist, the thing well be done with ease. If it be in Cadent Houses, it will scarce ever be, though other significators seem never so favourable; and if two at least of them be not so, take it for certain it will never be done.


The ruler of the preceding syzygy(full Moon) was Mercury in the cadent 9th, so we don't have that condition fulfilled - if we approach the syzygy by looking at the ruler of the light above the earth which was the Sun in this case. If we look strictly at the position of the Moon, as Guido seems to suggest, then it is clearly Jupiter in the angle of the 7th.
As far as I can remember, Ptolemy advises us to look at the ruler of the chart luminary in syzygies, not solely the ruler of the Moon.

I'm still not sure which way to follow, though I have a strong inclination to regard first and foremost the ruler of the light of the time.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks for the quote from Lilly(I was lazy enough not to read what Lilly says at all!) - obviously, Saturn is the reason everything went(relatively) well in the end. Having the most dignity in the ascendant, receiving Venus by trine he ensured the positive outcome.

@Seiko,
Frawley never mentions such possibilities of perfection; his horary method is too rigid and too dry for my taste, especially after having acquainted myself with the methods found in Masha'allah, Sahl and Bonatti; and that is why I abandoned his horary approach long time ago - not to mention his false teaching on receptions.

Regards,
Goran

How about the fact that Venus rules both H1 and H8 so we can take Mercury as the significator of the money? Moon applies to opposition with Mercury which describes the fact that the Querent had to harass the borrower to collect the money -- and Mercury is combust (though it is not so much of an affliction in its own sign) so not all of the money were recovered.

@cor scorpii
Whatever works for you. Frawley is not perfect, nobody is, but most of his teachings work. Not that I have anything against teachings of the ancient geniuses, God forbid, but as Marcus Aurelius said I'm searching for the truth, not opinions.

Seiko wrote:How about the fact that Venus rules both H1 and H8 so we can take Mercury as the significator of the money? Moon applies to opposition with Mercury which describes the fact that the Querent had to harass the borrower to collect the money -- and Mercury is combust (though it is not so much of an affliction in its own sign) so not all of the money were recovered.

May I ask why you use Mercury to reprsent the money?

So the chart looks pretty straightforward to me.

Konrad wrote:

Seiko wrote:How about the fact that Venus rules both H1 and H8 so we can take Mercury as the significator of the money? Moon applies to opposition with Mercury which describes the fact that the Querent had to harass the borrower to collect the money -- and Mercury is combust (though it is not so much of an affliction in its own sign) so not all of the money were recovered.

May I ask why you use Mercury to reprsent the money?

Yes, you may. L1 and L8 = Venus but Venus cannot make an aspect to herself, can she? You need a planet to connect Venus to. In these cases the usual method is to take the Lord of the next sign -- Mercury.