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13 by margherita
Clelia Romano wrote: As for the Sun, he is the king and the seminal principle of life, so he can?t be related with death. But to be too much near to the king simply turns other planets invisible, not because the king is malefic, but because the planets has not his own real light.

Quadripartite, Of the length of life:

For in general we must not admit any planet, either to destroy or to aid, that is under the rays of the sun, except that when the moon is prorogator the place of the sun itself is destructive, when it is changed about by the presence of a maleficent planet and is not released by any of the beneficent ones.

margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

14 by Stellarium
Konrad wrote:
Stellarium wrote:Quick comment on the chart: Lot of Basis (discussed in detail in another thread) is in Libra ruled by Venus/Pisces/12th - this is the significator of alchohol and drug abuse, because Venus is with Mars and a fallen Mercury, but most of all applies withing 2 degrees to opposition of Saturn in 6th.

Quick recap of what I lok for when analysing the Lot of basis:

The following is considered:
1. Any planet(s) with the lot, the essential nature of the planet, its dignity/debility and the houses it rules.
2. The ruler of the lot, its condition (dignity, house, etc). Planet(s) in the same sign as the ruler, the houses these planets rule.
3. The ruler of the ruler of the lot.
4. Position of the ruler relative to the lot of Fortune (with Fortune, 10 signs from Fortune and 8th from Fortune are most important).
5. Aspects within a 3 degree orb are very important, especially harsh aspects involving the malefics.
6. House and sign position of the lot. Influence is less clear in the examples I have seen. It is supposedly better to have the lot angular for fame/eminence. Regarding sign position, the native may have some characteristics associated with the sign but this could be due to the lot of Basis also being the lot of Eros (desires) as explained by Robert Schmidt in a post down the thread.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5490
Stellarium, may I ask why you say the 8th from fortune is important?
It is mentioned by Valens in relation to violent deaths in the anthology (here: http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vet ... entire.pdf) from page 55.

Here is a quote with Valens explaining the rationale of the 8th from fortune being a place associated with death:
Now we will press on to consider violent deaths. When the ruler of
the new or full moon at the nativity is turned away from its sign or is unfavorably situated, with a malefic in aspect, it indicates violent death. In the same way, if Mercury is in opposition to the full moon and has malefics in aspect, it brings a bad cause of death. If Saturn, Mars, or Mercury are located in the sign <of> on the fortieth day, /120P/ they indicate violent death. Likewise malefics in the Descendant or in the sign preceding the Descendant bring violent deaths or the onset of diseases and miserable deaths.
The VIII Place from the Ascendant has the same influence on the cause of death; so does the 8th Place from the Lot of Fortune. It is necessary to examine the Lot and its ruler to see in which signs they are located, because the cause of death will be foretold by them: the moon (which is Fortune), when in conjunction
with the sun in Aries, suffers an eclipse or loss of light in the eighth sign, Scorpio. Therefore Scorpio is called its depression.

15 by Stellarium
Clelia Romano wrote:Hello Stellarium!

I did not get why the Lot of basis taken as an horoskopus has to do with illnesses or drug abuse :-? .
I understand that the Lot of basis is related to the basis of the chart: parental attitudes, what kind of support the native had, etc. And the Lot always falls under the horizon due to its special construction.
Can you enlighten me about that? :-)

Clelia

Stellarium wrote:Quick comment on the chart: Lot of Basis (discussed in detail in another thread) is in Libra ruled by Venus/Pisces/12th - this is the significator of alchohol and drug abuse, because Venus is with Mars and a fallen Mercury, but most of all applies withing 2 degrees to opposition of Saturn in 6th.

Quick recap of what I lok for when analysing the Lot of basis:

The following is considered:
1. Any planet(s) with the lot, the essential nature of the planet, its dignity/debility and the houses it rules.
2. The ruler of the lot, its condition (dignity, house, etc). Planet(s) in the same sign as the ruler, the houses these planets rule.
3. The ruler of the ruler of the lot.
4. Position of the ruler relative to the lot of Fortune (with Fortune, 10 signs from Fortune and 8th from Fortune are most important).
5. Aspects within a 3 degree orb are very important, especially harsh aspects involving the malefics.
6. House and sign position of the lot. Influence is less clear in the examples I have seen. It is supposedly better to have the lot angular for fame/eminence. Regarding sign position, the native may have some characteristics associated with the sign but this could be due to the lot of Basis also being the lot of Eros (desires) as explained by Robert Schmidt in a post down the thread.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5490
I have not considered the Lot of Basis as the horoskopus (by which you mean a hyleg?). It is a determinant of physical (Moon -> Fortune) and mental well being (Spirit -> Sun). If one is an alcohol and drug abuser (Spirit->Sun), then one is more likely to suffer a premature death (Moon -> Fortune). Basis is the shortest arc between Fortne and Spirit. The ruler of the lot (and any planets in the sign of the lot) can then taken to be determinants of general health and well being, according to the houses and condition of the palnets concerned. The connection to longevity is therefore indirect.

16 by Konrad
Stellarium wrote:
Konrad wrote:
Stellarium wrote:Quick comment on the chart: Lot of Basis (discussed in detail in another thread) is in Libra ruled by Venus/Pisces/12th - this is the significator of alchohol and drug abuse, because Venus is with Mars and a fallen Mercury, but most of all applies withing 2 degrees to opposition of Saturn in 6th.

Quick recap of what I lok for when analysing the Lot of basis:

The following is considered:
1. Any planet(s) with the lot, the essential nature of the planet, its dignity/debility and the houses it rules.
2. The ruler of the lot, its condition (dignity, house, etc). Planet(s) in the same sign as the ruler, the houses these planets rule.
3. The ruler of the ruler of the lot.
4. Position of the ruler relative to the lot of Fortune (with Fortune, 10 signs from Fortune and 8th from Fortune are most important).
5. Aspects within a 3 degree orb are very important, especially harsh aspects involving the malefics.
6. House and sign position of the lot. Influence is less clear in the examples I have seen. It is supposedly better to have the lot angular for fame/eminence. Regarding sign position, the native may have some characteristics associated with the sign but this could be due to the lot of Basis also being the lot of Eros (desires) as explained by Robert Schmidt in a post down the thread.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5490
Stellarium, may I ask why you say the 8th from fortune is important?
It is mentioned by Valens in relation to violent deaths in the anthology (here: http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vet ... entire.pdf) from page 55.

Here is a quote with Valens explaining the rationale of the 8th from fortune being a place associated with death:
Now we will press on to consider violent deaths. When the ruler of
the new or full moon at the nativity is turned away from its sign or is unfavorably situated, with a malefic in aspect, it indicates violent death. In the same way, if Mercury is in opposition to the full moon and has malefics in aspect, it brings a bad cause of death. If Saturn, Mars, or Mercury are located in the sign <of> on the fortieth day, /120P/ they indicate violent death. Likewise malefics in the Descendant or in the sign preceding the Descendant bring violent deaths or the onset of diseases and miserable deaths.
The VIII Place from the Ascendant has the same influence on the cause of death; so does the 8th Place from the Lot of Fortune. It is necessary to examine the Lot and its ruler to see in which signs they are located, because the cause of death will be foretold by them: the moon (which is Fortune), when in conjunction
with the sun in Aries, suffers an eclipse or loss of light in the eighth sign, Scorpio. Therefore Scorpio is called its depression.
Oh right, thanks.

17 by Clelia Romano
margherita wrote:
Clelia Romano wrote: As for the Sun, he is the king and the seminal principle of life, so he can?t be related with death. But to be too much near to the king simply turns other planets invisible, not because the king is malefic, but because the planets has not his own real light.
Quadripartite, Of the length of life:

For in general we must not admit any planet, either to destroy or to aid, that is under the rays of the sun, except that when the moon is prorogator the place of the sun itself is destructive, when it is changed about by the presence of a maleficent planet and is not released by any of the beneficent ones.
Hi Margherita:

I?m aware of this excerpt in the Tetrabiblos.
Indians also have the Sun as a malefic.
Many people die in the same day of their birthday or very near, but in my humble opinion, the Sun is the principle of life and the Moon is his partner. When a cycle of life is completed, a revolution of the nativity, and the planets agree that it is time to end life, the cycle of Sun is a good time to end: he gave, he takes back.
But we are entering the field of philosophy.
And...Ptolemy is not the only opinion in earth :lol:

Clelia
.
http://www.astrologiahumana.com

18 by Clelia Romano
Hi Stellarium:

I can see you are very keen of Lot of Basis, but according to what we read in Valens, very little is said about Lot of Basis. In Book 2 we have the only mention of it, andit is used with Fortune and Daemon.

I?ll quote Valens:

"22K;23P. Notable and Distinguished Nativities. Also Ignoble and Debased Nativities.
So it will be necessary to calculate the effects of the Lot of Daimon in the same way we described for the Lot <of>. For day births, this Lot is found by determining the distance from the moon to the sun (for night births, from the sun to the moon), then counting this distance from the Ascendant.
Now examine the ruler of the Lot and its place?whatever that happens to be. Do the same for the Lot of Basis: it is found by determining the distance from Fortune to Daimon <for> or from Daimon to Fortune <for>, then counting that distance from the Ascendant. (The distance will not exceed the number 7 <7> for night or day births but it is necessary to take the distance from the nearest Lot to the other Lot.) Then determine the place and its houseruler.
Now then, if the houserulers exchange places?i.e. if the ruler of the Lot of Fortune is in the Lot of Basis, the ruler of Basis is in the Lot of Daimon, and the ruler of Daimon is in the place of Fortune?the native is fortunate, royal, noted. If the ruler of Basis, together with the ruler of Daimon, is in the place of Daimon, the native is fortunate and great-hearted. If the rulers of Daimon, of Fortune, and of Basis are in their proper places, in such cases as well the native is fortunate. If Daimon is in conjunction with the sun and its ruler is rising, the native is fortunate. Likewise if Venus rules Fortune, Daimon, or Basis and is found to be rising and in its proper place, the native is fortunate. If its ruler is in Basis and the moon is in conjunction with it, the native will be fortunate and distinguished. If its ruler is in Daimon and the sun is
in conjunction with it, the native will be fortunate, distinguished, and dictatorial.
If Mars is found to be in Daimon and in the places of the moon, with the moon in conjunction, the nativity is ruling, governing, and distinguished. If Mercury is found in Daimon, rising, and with benefics in aspect in the places of the moon, the native will gain fortune from letters and education; he will have many friends and be renowned, be thought worthy of honors, gifts, and high rank, and will be calledblessed by many. If Jupiter rules Daimon with Mars in superior aspect, the native will not suffer misfortune, but will be vigorous and distinguished. He will, however, meet with reverses, be ruined, and experience arrest and exile. If the ruler is in Daimon and is rising with the moon, the native will be fortunate, rich, and generous. If the sun is in Daimon, in its own sect, and with its houseruler in its proper
place, the native will be distinguished, elegant, and will have many friends. If it is in another place, the native will be fortunate after the chronocratorship of its adversary.
/89K;85P/ If the rulers of Daimon and of Fortune are found in the place of Basis, with the houseruler in conjunction, the nativity will be illustrious and renowned. Likewise if the rulers of Basis and of Fortune are found in Daimon, with the houserulers in conjunction, the nativity will be great and fortunate."


We can elaborate the concept of this Lot as you did, but honestly and I do not want to generate any conflict, the Lot of Basis is very far in importance compared to the Fortune that can be used as ASC (or horoskopo, as you did and a totally agree) and to the Lot of Spirit.
Basis can be used together with Fortune and Spirit, but its importance by itself is not so huge.

Thank you for your answer!

Clelia
http://www.astrologiahumana.com

20 by margherita
yuzuru wrote:
And...Ptolemy is not the only opinion in earth
Amen to that!
Obviously not.
But as I always say, Ptolemaic method is the only one we have tons of examples.

Of the "Hellenistic" method how many real examples do we have? Hellenistic astrology is mostly arbitrary rebuilt . (I don't know if "arbitrary" is the right word, I mean it is built on theory rather than real examples, no negative meaning).

On the other hand Giuntini, Cardano and so on have examples for everything, tons of real charts.

margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

21 by cor scorpii
Many people die in the same day of their birthday or very near, but in my humble opinion, the Sun is the principle of life and the Moon is his partner.
And many more manage to live on :D

I don't think this can be reduced to a question of Ptolemy's opinion vs. others. The Sun is clearly capable of being anareta.

In "Introductory Matters"(34. Concerning crises), Paulus Alexandrinus writes:
And let the contact, whether by day or by night,that arises from the solar circumambulation with the Moon be conceived of as dangerous and death - bringing. And similarly, the contact arising from the circumambulation of the Moon with the Sun, whether by day or by nigh, signifies deathly danger.

Greetings,
Goran

22 by margherita
cor scorpii wrote:
In "Introductory Matters"(34. Concerning crises), Paulus Alexandrinus writes:
And let the contact, whether by day or by night,that arises from the solar circumambulation with the Moon be conceived of as dangerous and death - bringing. And similarly, the contact arising from the circumambulation of the Moon with the Sun, whether by day or by nigh, signifies deathly danger.

Greetings,
Goran
:'

on the other hand in my opinion there is not something like Hellenistic astrology against Ptolemy. Ptolemy should take his things somewhere. Maybe he revised something, but mostly he should take from contemporary astrology.

margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

23 by Clelia Romano
yuzuru wrote:
And...Ptolemy is not the only opinion in earth
Amen to that!
Yuzuru and Margherita:

I?m fond of Ptolemy. To say the truth, the more I read the more I appreciate his teachings. Obvioulsy I do not agree with his technique to calculate the Fortune, his confusing idea of horimae and that a planet must be above the earth to be Hyleg, etc
But his rationale is much more straight than Valen?s for example.
However, he does not have an only example chart, against lot of them in Valen?s books, so, Margherita, I did not get why you said he is the only to exemplify his methods.
Perhaps others did it for him, but we will never know if Ptolemy would agree with them, due the mistaken translations and because he did not give any chart as example.

But this in a different subject and I was just wandering...:-)

Clelia
http://www.astrologiahumana.com

24 by Clelia Romano
Hello Goran:

you said:
I don't think this can be reduced to a question of Ptolemy's opinion vs. others. The Sun is clearly capable of being anareta.
It can be anareta, and all the planets can be as well. But this does not change the idea that Sun and Moon are the lights, specially the Sun is the generator principle and the more important "planet", the only to have its own light which is lent to all the other planetes.
The Sun and the Moon, the luminary of night and that is the luminous body nearer the earth has a not controverse meaning of the preferred hyleg or givers of life, beyond all the other points and planets: they come first and the same Ptolemy teaches us that in absence of Sun and Moon as hyleg to use the planet with more fortitude in the place of them.
But these big lords are subject to time, as all the others, or saying in other words, life is subject to time, so when the circumbulations arrive to the point of death, the universal givers of life of course are a big part of the scenery. If they are not able to bring life anymore, then you can say in a figurative way that they are " causing death", but this is the same as saying that the sky is cloudy and somber because the Sun killed the light.
In other words, the Sun, having so much power as giver of life, if his job is still done, and it is time, the person will die. We can see that the time is coming using predictive techniques.

Clelia
http://www.astrologiahumana.com
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