13 by Tom I would be very wary of any predictions based solely or mostly on a Saturn-Pluto aspect or some vague predictions of "war" over the 1999 eclipse. Mark wrote: I don't think anyone was suggesting that kind of approach was sufficient. Exactly. My exact words, I believe were "BASED ON" the Saturn Pluto opposition and to my recollection it was. The Saturn Pluto opposition was a fact, it was placed in a context and built on from there. We need to remember that these threads are conversations, not scholarly, peer reviewed papers. There has to be a little leeway granted or we'll all be buried in books just to say hello, if we bother to write anything at all. If I were writing in order to criticize, or even support (not just mention) Hand's methods, then I would be obligated to go into detail. If anyone wants more detail, just ask and if I can provide it I will when I get the time. Quote Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:33 pm
14 by Tom I also wish to clarify something else I wrote that was poorly phrased. I said I was using Ingress and other charts to use hindsight astrology to try to "predict" the 9/11 attacks in a method that Morin might have used. In that context I also said I looked at foundation charts for the Twin Towers which an astrologer would not have used. What I meant was that I was attempting to use Morin's methods as they might have been used by an astrologer prior to the attacks who was looking to make a prediction or two for the coming year. Obviously with no foreknowledge of the attacks, our hypothetical astrologer would not have used any foundation charts for the Twin Towers. He would have had to know the Twin Towers were going to be attacked in order to use them. I think it is well beyond the capabilities of any astrologer to say with certainty prior to the events that people were going to fly airplanes into the Twin Towers in September 2001. However, if Morin's methods are usable, then something of this nature should be in the charts he would have used. Sorry Al. If you don't tell us how you did it, I have to remain skeptical regardless of your reputation (ditto Robert Zoller). Quote Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:01 pm
15 by james_m some here might find this article of value. http://www.new-library.com/info/article ... 01+35.html Quote Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:24 pm
16 by Tom I found the tape I referred to above and it isn't the right one. The tape is of a lecture on the chart of the modern era, but the lecture was given in May of 2002, 8 months after 9/11. It is still of interest and it relates to 9/11 a little. I'll write some more on this after I listen to the tape in its entirety. I have old notebooks of Hand's earlier lectures that I attended and I'll look for them. At this website: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/astrolog ... iction.php I found this remark re: Rob Hand and 9/11: In the Aug./Sept. 2001 issue of The Mountain Astrologer, Robert Hand picked the Saturn-Pluto opposition of 2001-2002, especially the quarter starting with the Libra equinox 2001 and/or the Aries equinox 2002, as times that are more likely to lead to a US military engagement in the Middle East. Anyone who has that issue might enlighten us. Sandstone's link is to the Luke Andrews article I referred to above. Quote Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:35 am
17 by Tom The lecture used the Aries Ingress that came before the Grand Conjunction (occurs in early Aries for the first time in a cycle) of 1702 cast for London. March 21 1702 NS 2:11 AM GMT London, UK The latest version of Solar Fire says 2:12 AM. Hand also used whole sign houses. This chart is the chart of the modern era, according to Hand and it is in effect for about 795 years. In this example he used transits of Pluto to the Pluto in this chart: 12 Leo 20 and he used an astro-cartography map as well. Using this chart the Pluto-MC line goes right through New York City. The Pluto IC line goes through Hanoi but that is another story. The Mars MC line goes through Tehran. The purpose in using London is that in 1702 London would be, if not the world's de facto capital at least the capital of the West and the West's most powerful nation. Using New York does not change the Astro-cartography map but it would change the house that holds Pluto. Cast for NYC Pluto is in the 10th house of government conjunct the MC so Pluto represents the government. Sticking with US history we have the following events coinciding with the following Pluto transits to the 1702 Pluto Opposition: US Constitutional Convention Trine: 1830s beginning of serious problems re:slavery Square: US Civil War Conjunction: 1947 US & USSR world super powers Square: Soviet Union collapses Trine: 9/11 Opposition: 2031 - 2032 Dates are approximate. On a personal note, I am uncomfortable with the Arab idea that since they couldn't accurately calculate an ASC or MC for the Jupiter Saturn conjunction that the preceding Aries Ingress would do. On the other hand the use of Pluto is fairly impressive in this case. Quote Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:18 am
18 by granny_skot Chart for the Modern Era??? Why this chart and why for 795 years? That statement is both profound and curious to me. having asked that, I'd ad to your 1830 list: Jackson's Indian Removal Act of 1830 and the beginning of his attack on the US Bank in 1830 causing the WORST depression the country has ever seen, worse even than the 30s or now, was also represented by that transit, and also a great contributor to the division that would eventually begin the Civil war. but that is certainly opinion on my part. Granny Quote Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:05 pm
19 by Tom Chart for the Modern Era??? Why this chart and why for 795 years? That statement is both profound and curious to me. Like I said, it is the Aries Ingress that precedes a Grand Conjunction. A Grand Conjunction is defined as the first conjunction of Saturn & Jupiter in a new cycle in Aries. This happens once in 795 years give or take a little. Since Aries is the beginning of the zodiac, this is the beginning of a new cycle. The idea is Abu Mashar's In Abu Mashar's day, he lived 787 - 886 AD, the math necessary to accurately calculate the correct moment for a Grand Conjunction was unknown, the astrologers of the day used the preceding Aries Ingress. Whether or not this actually works, I don't know. But we were looking for reasons in medieval astrology that could possibly help understand how Robert Zoller predicted 9/11 and this may be one. Hand who defined his methods as "weird" or "eccentric" used astro-cartography and modern planets on an old chart to great effect. If anyone has Solar Maps, this is a revealing technique, and I thought it was worth mentioning. Quote Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:46 am
20 by Andrew Bevan On Dec. 14. Tom wrote:My question is: What foundation chart(s) would Morrison have used and what would he compare them to? There was groundbreaking in 1966 for the first tower and another groundbreaking for the second some time later . Should we use the opening in 1974, or capping even though the building was open for business but not yet completed when that happened. My desktop research could not produce a time of day for the ceremonies and is that the right date or do we need to look for final approval from the City? Better question: why do famous astrologers make accurate predictions and not tell anyone how they did it? Or maybe Morrison was just kidding? I'm sorry, I missed the topic notification on this on-going discussion, so although I started it, I have not been participating. I was only 21 years at the time I visited N.Y. and popped by Al H.Morrison, Michael Lutin, Bill Meridian and others. There were a lot of things to take in. Morrison's office down Old Chelsea Station was probably 8 times my office space today and four times the mess. Things that Morrison either said or showed I had to take with me and figure out on my own afterwards. Previously this year (1984) Morrison had published an article of mine on the chart of Norway. The only thing I can say is that Morrison was quite explicit in his prediction. I only have a few seasons of his CAO TImes. Whether he left any written material on this prediction in either this journal or in other written work is hard for me to say. However, I do believe it is a significant prediction, as far as astrology does come, and there is the opportunity for us to us to acknowledge it, record it and try and figure out how it was done. The first time I met Robert Hand and told him of my acquaintance with Morrison, Hand said: "The trouble with Morrison is that he has forgotten more astrology than the rest of us ever knew." I recall Morrison telling me, while we were looking through an old catalogue of eclipse paths, how little we knew and understood about how the old Chaldean astrologers and High Priests formed their predictions. I find it intriguing, the prospect of lost knowledge, and it is a challange to try and put all the pieces together again. --------------------------------------- It's like a lost song, isn't it? Morrison did not have the charts on him as we were stood on the top of the WTC. I felt Morrison was expressing himself in full sincereness, even though I was trying to work him out. I mean, he took me to Wall Street and then to the United Nations to look at some Moon Rock. Future market crashes were not discussed, neither the prospects of Martians or water on the Moon. Really, I feel it as both a responsibilty and opportunity to pass on this story about Morrison to the astrological community. I mean, astrology is what this guy lived and breathed for, as may be valid for the rest of us. Some time in the future astrologers may spend decades in search of Tom's wine cellar on the basis of fragments of text found at Skyscript. Tom, you will save us the odd spot of Bourbon, won't you? http://www.astronor.com Quote Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:53 am
21 by Mark Andrew wrote: I'm sorry, I missed the topic notification on this on-going discussion, so although I started it, I have not been participating. I was only 21 years at the time I visited N.Y. and popped by Al H.Morrison, Michael Lutin, Bill Meridian and others. That must have been an exciting experience at such a young age! I have no doubt Morrison was an excellent astrologer. However, I find it hard to believe that a prediction as graphically explicit as this one didn't involve some psychic ability too. I find it interesting Morrison never offered any astrological explanation for that statement. If he had just predicted a collapse astrologically at some point one could study foundation charts. But to get that a jumbo jet would hit the Twin Towers seems beyond just astrological symbolism to me. Astrologers are a cross section of the overall population like any other group. In my opinion some astrologers do have that ability. That is why I have doubts whether any chart will really unearth the exact process that led Morrison to this remarkable prediction. If it did rely on a flash of psychic premonition it would not be replicatable with just astrological technique on its own. Still, I cannot be sure about this for certain. Maybe the limitations of my astrological understanding are blinkering me. I certainly think we should at least try to replicate such predictions with our available techniques. However, when we are offered remarkable astrological predictions without any real explanation how they were arrived at there will always be the thought they may derive more from psychic premonition than simply astrological technique. Mark Last edited by Mark on Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total. As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly Quote Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:29 am
22 by Andrew Bevan But to get that a jumbo jet would hit the Twin Towers seems beyond just astrological symbolism to me. It's Christmas Eve and I am not going to get my books and notes out, but I do believe the term 'Jumbo' or 'Boeing" was derived from the significations of a 'Big Bird' represented by the planet Jupiter. http://www.astronor.com Quote Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:49 am
23 by Mark Andrew wrote: .... I do believe the term 'Jumbo' or 'Boeing" was derived from the significations of a 'Big Bird' represented by the planet Jupiter. Ok. We can hopefully explore that after the holidays. Andrew wrote: It's Christmas Eve and I am not going to get my books and notes out Quite right too! Its down tools and even astrolabes for a few days. Let me wish all the mundane forum users and Skyscripters generally a great Christmas and a peaceful New Year. Mark As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly Quote Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:05 am
24 by Tom And Merry Christmas to everyone here. Just for the sake of clarity, I wasn't challenging anyone. I was just musing why an astrologer would do, particularly what Zoller did, make a formal prediction without telling anyone how he did it or why he believes it. A conversation is a conversation and we don't have to carry notes with us wherever we go, much less recall perfectly everything that was said to us 27 years ago. It's bad enough that we were adults 27 years ago, but to be expected to recall all of it is over the top. Morrison probably needs to be better known than he is. I know almost nothing about him. He is mentioned with affection by Debbie Kempton Smith in her beginner's book Secrets from a Stargazer's Notebook. Quite by accident in a cafe reading an astrology book a person started a conversation with me and noted that she had seen Morrison give a talk at a college once and although she was not an astrologer, she thoroughly enjoyed it. If Hand said Morrison forgot more astrology than most people know, then Morrison should be better known: period. I just wish he told us why he said what he did. Quote Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:58 pm