Skyscript Astrology Forum

Posted: **Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:31 pm**

jventura wrote:Bottom line, by what I've read in the news websites out there, and in the subsequent comments, is that, unfortunately, this kind of stupid moves is only attracting bad publicity and rage towards astrology and astrologers.. The first response to your post in the tz db was like "What, this is being done by stupid astrologers?" People here don't realize, but this is very serious indeed..

Do you have a link?

Posted: **Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:33 pm**

zoidsoft wrote:Do you have a link?

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.time.tz/4169 [the response to your post at the TZ mailing list]
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/11/10/06/ ... e-database [the link you've written previously]

The last one has comments like:
- "Maybe they ran a prediction and it told them they would win.",
- "Wait, wait, they're an ASTROLOGY company, not ASTRONOMY?! What, did their crystal ball tell them they'd win in court?"
- "I can't help you there but I've got a hot time from their website, it's a good time to meet females! [about a free service at alabe.com]"
- more "pearls" among the almost 400 comments!

Posted: **Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:29 pm**

More reactions from http://www.thedailyparker.com/PermaLink ... 3c938.aspx

* Is data about when time zone rules changed throughout history protected under copyright?
* If so, who owns it?
* If someone owns it, is the Olson database a derivative work under copyright law?
* If the Olson database does, in fact, derive from the work in question, is it a fair use?
* Just how stupid are these astrologists, anyway?

More comments at http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201110 ... l#comments

* I say grats to astrolabe's lawyers for wasting a lot of their money so they can't continue with their batshit insane charlatanism (i.e. astrology) which is entirely made up bullshit designed to steal money from the mentall weak and vulnerable.
* The inferior people who believe in astrology aren't really human: they're primates. Their inadequate brains should be discarded when their organs are harvested for use by members of superior species.
* Or you could just boycott their astrology software because astrology is imaginary.
* Or just not be stupid and not believe in astrology.

And I'll stop here.. So much bad publicity for a stupid thing! Oh well..

Posted: **Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:53 pm**

I've been trying to wrap my head around this all day and the more I read about it, the more ridiculous the lawsuit appears. At first I thought they were complaining someone swiped the computer code from them that they created to make the database work. They would have a point if they went to all the effort of writing up all that data for use in their software or for sale and others just incorporated it into their software.

But increasingly I'm getting the idea that they are claiming copyright on the data, i.e. the information about time zones. As one of the articles notes: no one can copyright facts or put another way, Astrolabe does not own time zone information. This is like an encyclopedia company suing another one because the second one named every state capital in the US and the first company did it first.

Things like this make the European system of "loser pays all" look really good.

Posted: **Sun Oct 09, 2011 12:10 am**

Tom wrote:I've been trying to wrap my head around this all day and the more I read about it, the more ridiculous the lawsuit appears. At first I thought they were complaining someone swiped the computer code from them that they created to make the database work.

I'm quite certain that Olson never did this. There is a long history of updates and criticisms of various sources of data going all the way back to 1986 from hundreds of people all over the world:

http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/

Which would probably make this the most scrutinized collection of public time zone data in the world.

Posted: **Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:22 am**

Tom wrote:Things like this make the European system of "loser pays all" look really good.

So that is why the "suing everyone" thing only happens in America!

Yeap, here in Europe, to go to court is considered a last resort when both parties can't agree, and need someone to mediate.. The loser pays the fees, so nobody does it for sport or leisure!

Seriously though, I don't know it worked that way in US, so now it all makes sense to me..

Posted: **Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:45 am**

In the US it is possible for the loser to pay everything, but it doesn't happen often. The appeals process is lengthy so the loser can keep on going. It is also possible and this is what Astrolabe might be counting on, to simply financially break the defendant so that he is forced by financial reasons to settle with the plaintiff even though he might have the stronger case. Going to court is very expensive here. Even if the plaintiff has a weak case the defendant is forced to defend himself. This doesn't mean every decision is unjust or the result of having more money, but that does happen.

The other reason everyone sues everyone over here is the "class action" lawsuit. If granted that status, the plaintiff sues on behalf of a class of people which can be huge. The defendant might settle rather than risk losing literally hundreds of millions. The class doesn't usually make very much, but the lawyers do. For example, someone sued an automobile tire company and was granted class action status. They eventually won the suit (I think it had to do with faulty tires). Since I purchased tires from the same company I was part of the suit. I had no problem with my tires.

The plaintiff prevailed and the class received a massive settlement. But there were so many people in the class, my share was $1.50. They lawyers however, got 1/3 of the total settlement. Guess who the system really benefits.

In this case that can't happen as Astrolabe is suing for copyright infringement so there is no class. Still the defendants must defend themselves and that is costly. It amazes me that the lawyers who favor national health care on the grounds that it is cheaper for everyone, would fight to the death if nationalized legal care were suggested (it never is), yet justice can easily cost from $500 to over $1000 an hour (more if you can afford a top light law office), and while you can throw in the towel in a civil suit, a wrongful criminal charge can be devastating even if you win.

Posted: **Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:00 pm**

Does Astrolabe have so much money that they can afford to "break" the defendant? Astrolabe might have some cash flow, but they are no Microsoft. Plus, I think this is rubbing a lot of astrologers (the ones who know about this) the wrong way. They are going to lose at least a few customers.

Posted: **Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:00 pm**

I think they probably hope to settle out of court by letting Olson off the hook with no penalties if he agrees to privatize the history portion of the tz database (or parts of the history). That way Unix gets their servers back and everybody's iPhones won't break (because the encryption used has to match the correct time) and everyone connected to astrology will be forced to pay royalties to Astrolabe if they want tz history.

Posted: **Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:24 pm**

zoidsoft wrote:I think they probably hope to settle out of court by letting Olson off the hook with no penalties if he agrees to privatize the history portion of the tz database (or parts of the history). That way Unix gets their servers back and everybody's iPhones won't break (because the encryption used has to match the correct time) and everyone connected to astrology will be forced to pay royalties to Astrolabe if they want tz history.

They won't get very far with it! At least for Portugal, I can provide historical information obtained from the Lisbon Astronomical Observatory. Assuming all other 500 contributors live at least in 100 different countries, in no time the tz_database historical section is back.. And if it is not tz_data, another one will surge, no doubt!

Royalties to Astrolabe on tz history?! Read my previous sentence..

On my opinion those guys on Astrolabe are finished! Their site is totally unprofessional, really amateur, their app only runs on Windows machines, on the upcoming Windows 8 they will get behind.
Support for Mac OS X on their site is something like "install a virtual machine, buy a Windows licence, install Windows in the virtual machine, and then use our app". Yeah, 400$ for rubish app + 100$ windows licence. I am amazed where people spend their money at!
Finally, no Linux support, they will never be able to support Android tablets, iPads, etc. (they can't even do their website in conditions)..

I've seen this kind of things happen before: the company builds good software, they rule the market, they improve their product, the improvements are each time smaller, they don't create more innovative products, they start to get less new costumers, they start war patents, then they close..

Jo?o Ventura

Posted: **Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:27 am**

I've already relocated twice for the sake of my business. I don't want to have to leave the USA to stay in business.

Posted: **Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:35 am**

zoidsoft wrote:I've already relocated twice for the sake of my business. I don't want to have to leave the USA to stay in business.

Well, at least here on Europe we have no software patents, no courthouse "sports", and the weather is very nice in the southern countries. Today, weather in Lisbon is 31?C/88?F, and the water on the nearby beaches seems so good..

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Astrolabe vs Arthur Olson et al lawsuit