The charts for many countries are based on a new constitution coming into force. ie USA (1789), Germany (1949), France (1958). I therefore thought it was worth researching a similar chart for Greece. The current constitution for Greece dates from 11th June 1975. It was apparently 'promulgated' that day. That often refers to an official document being issued bringing the constitution into force. However, I have worked on the assumption the constitution came into force at 00:00 hours. I dont read Greek so if anyone else finds out something else do post your comment.

I would be interested to know. Have any Greek astrologers thought of this chart and tried it out?

I have displayed the chart with transits for the 11th of November with the inauguration of the new Greek government.

Here is the chart for the 1975 constitution with transits on the outer wheel. The Cancer Moon has been affected by the Pluto opposition and Uranus moving into Aries squaring it. Uranus has also been opposing the radix Pluto in Aries. Transiting Pluto is squaring the radix Pluto. The transiting nodes have been crossing the Gemini Sun/Mercury in the chart. Mars (MC ruler) is squaring the radix nodes. Tr Sun trine radix Saturn.
Mark

I think occupying ourselves with Greece's charts, we're missing the point.
Italy following Greece with another banker as leader, i fear 11/11/2011 4.00pm EET might be the birthchart of something that extends far away from Greece small borders: a global bank goverment

Do take the time to read the following article -it's in french, but the second one it's an english translation of it I found:

http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/20 ... _3214.html

http://hellasfrappe.blogspot.com/2011/1 ... sachs.html

also this prophetic article
http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/art ... tional-web

Georgia

I think occupying ourselves with Greece's charts, we're missing the point

.

Thanks for the articles. Very revealing. I dont think focusing on Greek charts is missing the point though. Its simply a different point from the one you are seeking to introduce to the thread. The thread was created to discuss the new Greek government. It therefore is a logical progression to look at the meta charts for Greece.

Naturally, as you point out there is much larger geo-political context to all this. Its deeply ironic that we have an economic crisis which had it origins in profligate banking practices yet we are being told by the media and the markets that only bankers can sort this mess out. Its a worrying development for democracy. However, I think these issues are more appropriately discussed on another thread.

We have been discussing the effects of the crisis across Europe.Hence we have started to discuss the German national chart(s) as Germany is in many respects the lynchpin in this crisis.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6387

Also I opened a thread on the future of the Euro some time ago which you might like to contribute to.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6316

Alternatively, you are welcome to open a fresh thread yourself.

I suppose the issue for Greeks is is it better to endure long term austerity for the forseeable future in the Euro or accept the shock of default and leaving the Euro. This will undoubtably have short term chaotic consequences for Greeks but it will at least allow devaluation. Its a question of which is the real lesser of two evils.

Mark

Hi
Thanks for the chart data in this topic. Also, a question or two.
For the Feb 3 1830 12Noon Chart with 2Ge16 rising what is the current Profected Ascendant for that chart? Same question for the July 24 1974 4AM chart with 13Cn rising?

Finally what chart do most of you agree is The Chart for the E.U. is that the Rome Treaty chart for 1.1.1958

Thanks in advance, Michael

Michael, hi

Michaelb wrote:For the Feb 3 1830 12Noon Chart with 2Ge16 rising what is the current Profected Ascendant for that chart? Same question for the July 24 1974 4AM chart with 13Cn rising?

For the first chart (3 feb 1830) I have no time data, that's why 12.00am is used. I have no idea at what time London Protocols are being signed.
As far as for 24 jul 1974, it's actually 4.15am (EET)
(an article i found for you in english: http://www.protothema.gr/news-in-englis ... aid=135858)

there is also see this candidate chart for Greece (13 jan 1922):
http://astro.phpbb24.com/modern-greece- ... -t466.html

Myself I'm a bit confused. Surely a Carpicorn sun fits better the cyprus tragedy in 1974, as well as nowdays debt crisis, but i also think that Aquarius sun conjunct Uranus at MC (3-2-1830) fits well our "misfit-rebel without a reason" reputation..

Georgia

Hi Georgia
Thanks for links. The first one, in English, wouldn't it be nice if every article posted the times of happenings like that article did!! In past with invent of email and possibility to contact the reporter I have written to
reporters asking if they could note times for specific events meetings etc., but no dice. Many thanks for the link.

The link for the Greek chart, another thank you. Reading up on Greece, all the troubles battles she has had with neighbors it would seem any natal chart for Greece would have Mars in 7H like the 13 Jan 1822 chart. There is a line of thought the sign Mars is in when in 7H may show country of major contention. Mars in Virgo in 7H whole signs. For what its worth, Green, Raphael, Carter list Turkey in Virgo. Greece Turkey not always the best of friends perhaps, smile smile.

Also to wars, we may look to Mars Saturn periods. Noting those two with Jupiter very close in Antiscia. Sat Jup in 2H whole sign house of wealth but from what I read on Net no one with money in Greece wants to pay taxes, smile smile.

Does Saturn in 4H from Sun 2H from Asc., show wealth from Mining? Have Saturn Mars been active afflicting one or the other when Greek Mining companies suffered losses like they must have done during War on Yugoslavia. Milosovich -spelling- had just given a Greek Mining company big contract for I think Iron Ore is why Greece refused to
participate in destruction of Yugo or Serbia. When NATO took over, The contract was torn up given to Canada.

With Pisces rising in 1822 chart, do Greek character manners and disposition fit well with Pisces? The religious connection, Jupiter ruler of Pisces is obvious, would it also be correct to say Greeks have a good thirst for knowledge, again Jupiter ruler of Pisces Asc., we all know that to be true don't we, knowledge smile smile.... this thirst for knowledge is it still same today?

Or, as you suggest, the character manners and disposition dominated by Sun in Cap?

Ok here is something may be of Interest for near correct ???? chart for Jan 13 1822. I mean, the time of chart using old time methods.

First of all, I cannot get the city Nea Epidavros to come up on www.Astro.com so for following charts I had to use Athens. You must do them as it would be to many charts to post on board. First I looked at

Sun into Cap prior to Jan 13 1822 the date is 12 22 1821 02:36 GMT Athens give Asc. 20Sc49

Sun into Ari prior to Jan 13 1822 the date is 3 20 1821 22:15 GMT Athens give Asc. 09Sg03

So then I run Sun into Aries 3 21 1822 this is after the event date but I do not think this is to haywire.

Sun into Aries 3 21 1822 04:08:45 GMT for Nea Epidavros 37n39 23e08 gives an Asc. at 19Pi17 I ran this chart on NOVA

Now, draw up a chart for Jan 13 1822 with 19Pi17 rising at Nea Epidavros, data is:
Jan 13 1822 08:32:11 GMT 37n39 23e08 Nea Epidavros gives Asc 19Pi17 Sun at 22Cp40 26.

So the chart at
http://astro.phpbb24.com/modern-greece- ... -t466.html
with approx. 17Pi rising would be similar to data I give above Jan 13 1822 08:32:11 GMT

NOTE I am using GMT for all data but for Jan 13 1822 chart I use Cords for 37n39 23e08 Nea Epidavros
So look then to Aries ingress, get Asc from that chart then find same Asc degree rising on date of chart. This is similar to the Sibley U.S. chart. I mean, the method of finding an Asc. Degree.
Many Thanks Geo for your reply, Michaelb

You wrote:
For the first chart (3 feb 1830) I have no time data, that's why 12.00am is used. I have no idea at what time London Protocols are being signed.
As far as for 24 jul 1974, it's actually 4.15am (EET)
(an article i found for you in english: http://www.protothema.gr/news-in-englis ... aid=135858)
there is also see this candidate chart for Greece (13 jan 1922):
http://astro.phpbb24.com/modern-greece- ... -t466.html
Myself I'm a bit confused. Surely a Carpicorn sun fits better the cyprus tragedy in 1974, as well as nowdays debt crisis, but i also think that Aquarius sun conjunct Uranus at MC (3-2-1830) fits well our "misfit-rebel without a reason" reputation.. Georgia

I know we are discussing contemporary Greek politics here but I couldn't resist a quick detour to look at the traditional astrological associations of Greece by sign.

As normal there was no complete consensus amongst astrologers. However, the most common association with Greece was the sign of Virgo and the planet Mercury.

The majority of sources considered the southern direction and especially the SE ie Greece associated with the earth signs. Cyprus was often liked to Taurus and Venus. These associations were for different reasons but mostly based on directional links to the four triplicities. Ptolemy's system was the most rational and logically thought out but it would take too much space to explain it here. Apart from Ptolemy most astrologers considered the east associated with the fire triplicity (Ptolemy instead gave it the north-West) . Hence Persia was often assigned to Aries. Therefore as Greece lay to the south and east of the known world it ended up with both earth and fire associations depending on location and outlook of the particular astrologer.

Claudius Ptolemy -Greece Virgo and planet Mercury.

The inhabitants of Hellas, Achaia, and Crete, ? have a familiarity with Virgo and Mercury, and are therefore better at reasoning, and fond of learning, and they exercise the soul in preference to the body. The Macedonians, Thracians, and Illyrians have familiarity with Capricorn and Saturn, so that, though they are acquisitive, they are not so mild of nature, nor social in their institutions. Tetrabiblos Book 11, Chapter 3, By Claudius Ptolemy

Vettius Valens-Greece, Achaea, Crete, the Cyclades, the Peloponnesus, Arcadia, Doris (Virgo).

Paul of Alexandria-Greece (Virgo), Crete (Sagittarius)

Hephaistio of Thebes- Hellas, Macedonia, (Leo), Ionia, Rhodes, Peloponnese, Arcadia (Virgo) Crete (Sagittarius) Aegean Sea, Corinth, Arcadia (Capricorn)

Manilius ?Hellespont (Aries), Rhodes, Doris, Ionia, Arcadia (Virgo) Crete- (Sagittarius)

Teucer of Babylon-Greece (Virgo)

In his book Christian Astrology the 17th century English astrologer William Lilly assigns southern Greece to Virgo and Thrace and Macedonia to Capricorn. He is clearly following the example of Ptolemy. Incidentally, Lilly assigns Turkey to the sign of Leo. A sign in aversion to both Virgo and Capricorn!

Mark

Mark wrote:As normal there was no complete consensus amongst astrologers. However, the most common association with Greece was the sign of Virgo and the planet Mercury.

Hey Mark
that was really interesting!
I had always felt like Virgo fits modern Greek society perfect (s/m bureaucracy, judgmentalism, too much focus on pension and health insurance, too much pills & doctors addiction, and, ok, too much public sector)- but then maybe it's because i live in Athens and Athens is concidered to be Virgo.
In ancient greek astrology, taking as centre the oracle of Delphi, a "zodiac" wheel was "designed" separating the regions around the oracle into 12 sectors/ signs. Thus Athens was associated to Virgo.

http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/wor ... e-sbd2.htm
http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/platoon.htm

Maybe this has also something to do with Parthenon dedicated to Athena Partheno (=virgin)?
Anyway, I don't know about Greece being Virgo- its capital definately is!

Regards,
Georgia

In ancient greek astrology, taking as centre the oracle of Delphi, a "zodiac" wheel was "designed" separating the regions around the oracle into 12 sectors/ signs. Thus Athens was associated to Virgo.

http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/wor ... e-sbd2.htm
http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/platoon.htm

Maybe this has also something to do with Parthenon dedicated to Athena Partheno (=virgin)?
Anyway, I don't know about Greece being Virgo- its capital definately is! Regards, Georgia

Thanks for the link. I have come across this author and his book before. He has obviously made a deep and sincere study of Greek mythology and ancient temple sites. I don?t mean to seem disrespectful to his efforts but even a cursory examination of his ideas shows his theory relies on a number of highly questionable assumptions. However, as this is the mundane forum I will leave that subject to one side for now. I may put the book up for discussion in the news , review section at some point.

The more central and practical point to our discussion here is where did the ancient Greeks consider the centre of the world?

Its certainly a problem with any system of astrological geography that seeks to assign somewhere as the epicentre. Different religions and cultures have all seen varying places as their sacred spaces. However, I cannot state for certain this was the outlook of the later Hellenistic astrologers. The oracle of Delphi does seem a plausible candidate.

It often looks to me though as if they often based this on their own location! An interesting modern version of this problem of astrological cultural bias is the system of Geodetics developed by the English astrologer Sepharial. In this system the frames of reference are the Greenwich meridian and the equator. The Greenwich line is 0 Aries in this system. However, the current time zones are clearly a social and cultural convention. As the English astrologer Michael Baigent said ?this system relies on believing God is an Englishman! ?. One could raise the same objection to the ancient systems linking triplicities to countries around the Mediterranean seen as the centre of the world. Indeed if you look at the meaning of this word in Latin 'in the middle of the earth" it means precisely that. Is such an approach still valid or worth utilising today in a world of 6 continents?

Getting back to Greece its worth pointing out the Persian and Arab astrologers often saw things differently. For example the astrologer and polymath Al Biruni described Greece as coming under the sign of Leo. He was describing what was then the Byzantine empire rather than just the modern territory of Greece. This raises the question of whether ancient or medieval attributions are still valid. How valid are astrological associations from pre-Christian pagan Greece today? After the fall of Constantinople and Ottoman occupation can a Byzantine association still apply? Equally, the Treaty of Lausanne defined the modern boundaries of Greece following the the surrender of substantial territory in Asia minor (Western Thrace) Should we therefore considering Greece within its modern boundaries? Do we go on the first attempt at Greek statehood since the fall of Byzantium or the latest?

I had always felt like Virgo fits modern Greek society perfect (s/m bureaucracy, judgmentalism, too much focus on pension and health insurance, too much pills & doctors addiction, and, ok, too much public sector)- but then maybe it's because i live in Athens and Athens is concidered to be Virgo.

This may be going out on a limb but I perceive a Cancerian emphasis in modern Greece. One way of trying to work out the astrological associations is to look at national characteristics. Looking at the Greek people there does seem to be an understandable pride in shared history, strong family bonds and a very strong sense of national identity. The Greek Orthodox Church remains a powerful institution in Greece to the extent that many Greeks find it hard to accept a person as really Greek unless they share the national religion. This is no doubt partly a product of Ottoman rule where there was constant pressure to convert to Islam and give up Greek, identity based on Eastern Orthodoxy. As a consequence there is little sign of the concept of secular ??civic nationalism? in Greece as found in countries like the USA, Australia , Britain or the Netherlands where national identity is not based on ethnicity or religion but rather shared values and respected institutions. A communitarian rather than an individualistic spirit seems stronger in Greece than in much of Europe. There also seems to be a tendency to more readily express emotions in public . Indeed to a subdued North European the Greeks may even seem emotionally volatile and quixotic.

The experience of Ottoman occupation also required Greeks to adopt a hard shell to protect their language, culture and faith. After the USA and France, Greece was one of the first countries where a upsurge of national identity brought about a successful struggle for self determination. Modern Greece is noted abroad for its unique cuisine and musicians. There is also the nautical associations of Greece with its numerous islands. All of this together makes me think the sign Cancer must have a powerful influence over modern Greece. I find it interesting one symbol utilized by the Byzantines was the crescent Moon. It was later adopted by the Ottoman Turks.

Unfortunately, most historic charts for Greece are speculative based on rectification so its hard to know the rising signs let alone degree. According to Ptolemy the Ascendant, Moon or failing these the Sun are the most important factors in determining the sign ruling the the foundation chart of a city. The same principle can be applied to nations. The difficulty is countries like Greece have history going back to antiquity. I will take a look later at numerous candidates as a national chart of modern Greece. Of the few charts we do have a timed ascendant for I note the 1974 chart is Cancer rising. The 1975 chart for the Greek Constitution has Moon in Cancer.

Mark

Michaelb wrote:

As far as for 24 jul 1974, it's actually 4.15am (EET)
(an article i found for you in english: http://www.protothema.gr/news-in-englis ... aid=135858)

Thanks Michael,

Thats useful. Nicholas Campion missed that one so well done!

First of all, I cannot get the city Nea Epidavros to come up on www.Astro.com so for following charts I had to use Athens. You must do them as it would be to many charts to post on board.

Yes I had the same problem on Solar Fire. Latitude 37?38'00"N and longitude 23?09'00"E.

Sun into Ari prior to Jan 13 1822 the date is 3 20 1821 22:15 GMT Athens give Asc. 09Sg03

Using an ingress chart is certainly a valid traditional method. I believe it was more usual to focus exclusively on an Aries Ingress chart if we are discussing the foundation of a country. Plus you dont focus so much on the Sun in this kind of chart (since it had to be in Aries!) but rather the rising sign and Moon in particular. I believe the Aries Ingress of 1821 is the valid chart (not the ingress of 1822) since within the year following the 1821 solar ingress the First Greek national assembly met and the declaration of independence was issued. The Assembly elected a five-member executive on 15 January 1822, As you mentioned the 1821 Aries ingress chart has 9'0 Sagittarius rising (Jupiter in Aries) and a Libra Moon 29'.

Mark

Dear fellow-Astrologers I have conducted a study on modern Greece's horoscope which you can see here http://astro.getforum.org/post3194.html#p3194

The date I came up with is the 13th of January 1822 - at Nea Epidavros, a little village, nearby the ancient theater of Epidaurus. What happened at Nea Epidavros on the 13th of January 1822? The Greeks declared their independence from the Turks (who had militarily occupied Greece for almost 4 centuries!).

The major forces of the time (England, France, Russia) recognized the independence of Greece on 3 February 1830 (by the London protocol). The Ottoman Turkey though - the interested part - did not sign immediately the London protocol and accepted it later on. To me the London protocol does not define the birth date of Greece because - as Nicholas Campion states in his "The Book of World Horoscopes" - "Regarding the significance of the international recognition of 3 February 1830, it should be remembered that Greece was already a fully functioning state with its own government, and had been for some years."

Moreover - as I state in my aticle on Greece's horoscope - it is generally accepted that the mere diplomatic recognition of a country by foreign powers does not constitute its foundation act. According to the Greek political scientists ?the Declaration of the Political Existence and Independence of the Greek Nation is the constitutive act of the Greek State, whose foundation, legally and historically has to be regarded as from January 1st, 1822 (Julian Calendar)".

Regarding now the 1975 Greek "Constitutional" horoscope I don't thing it's very proper to study astrologically a country not using its "foundation" horoscope but what actually is the horoscope of a posterior constitutional "amendment". If you study the 1st January 1822 Constitution you will realise that its spirit is as democratic and advanced as the constitution of 1975. Thus, on 1975 we don't experience a major constitutional change in regard to the VERY Greek constitution (the constitution upon which Greece was founded on) but only in regard to the previous 7 years military dictatorship period. We have to be very thorough in our studies and establish very acute criteria, when we study the intricacies of the national horoscopes.

Thomas Gazis

Thomas wrote:

Regarding now the 1975 Greek "Constitutional" horoscope I don't thing it's very proper to study astrologically a country not using its "foundation" horoscope but what actually is the horoscope of a posterior constitutional "amendment". If you study the 1st January 1822 Constitution you will realise that its spirit is as democratic and advanced as the constitution of 1975. Thus, on 1975 we don't experience a major constitutional change in regard to the VERY Greek constitution (the constitution upon which Greece was founded on) but only in regard to the previous 7 years military dictatorship period. We have to be very thorough in our studies and establish very acute criteria, when we study the intricacies of the national horoscopes.

Hello Thomas,

Thanks for your post and the link to your article. I do think there is a slight flaw in your argument in the sense that you claim the 1822 as the 'foundation' chart for Greece. However, in your own words Greece is such an ancient country any foundation chart as you put it is lost in the mists of time.

First I have to say I am very sceptical about the view that a country has 'one true and only chart'. I dont think astrology, countries or the universe work like that. I think various charts involving key dates of national significance should be looked at. The Irish astrologer Bill Sheeran has argued this very persuasively. The whole article is quite long and philosophical in parts but introduces the kind of reflective , mature thinking mundane astrology needs more of.

http://www.radical-astrology.com/articl ... er2-2.html

I have some problems with relying on the 1822 chart exclusively based on the First National Assembly of Epidaurus in 1822. First off on a practical basis we have no timing here. The chart therefore opens up the possibility of endless speculation such as we find in the USA 1776 chart. You tentatively suggest a Pisces rising chart but even you admit it is not certain. Secondly, it is my understanding the National Assembly of Epidaurus was unelected and left out many noteable groups in Greek society. How representative were these 59 men to speak for all of Greece? At this point Greece was not a state and the revolutionary war had still to be fought. I am not denying this is an important seed moment in modern Greece.

You question the validity of later constitutional charts when there are earlier ones. However, the date you give is for the Declaration of Independence not the drafting of the first Greek constitution as this came later. The astrological principle I follow goes back at least as far as medieval astrology. When a new kingdom or dynasty was formed the astrologers drafted a new chart for that Kingdom. The principle seems similar when a country re-constitutes itself with a new constitution. Hence we see most astrologers use a chart for France based on the creation of the current 5th Republic. Astrologers dont revert to the constitution of the first French republic as this is no longer seen as valid.

Using the medieval analogy the constitution is like a chart for a whole dynasty while the chart for the swearing in of a leader is like a royal cornoation chart. The English 17th century astrologer William Ramesey actually uses this second analogy for republics in his book Astrologia Restaurata (Astrology Retored).

I think both the 1974 and 1975 charts have particular relevance to modern Greece. The 1974 chart represents the restoration of democracy to Greece. The 1975 chart represents the legal framework under which the modern country of Greece operates. On the same basis I use the 1789 chart for the USA when the constitution of the USA came into effect. The only time I would ignore such charts would be if they are created in an authoritarian non-democratic society. For example the Soviet Union under Stalin had various constitutions but they were legally meaningless.

Mark