Skyscript Astrology Forum

Thanks Deb and Goran, I do agree with you, but......if we didn?t know it was Messi?s chart, would we choose Mars as the significator of profession?
I think the Jupiter/Mars trine with mutual reception shows his success, not especially his profession.
Bonatti tells us to look at angular planets, especially in the 1st house: ?Look at the Ascendant of his nativity, and see if one of the planets is found in it: because he whom you were to find in the Ascendant will have to be considered, and you will take the signification of the aforesaid from him.? Book of Astronomy, Volume II, p. 1337 Translated by Benjamin Dykes, Cazimi Press 2007
In Ptolemy?s Tetrabiblos, IV.4, Ptolemy wrote:?The lord of action is apprehended by two methods, from the sun and from the culminating sign. For it will be needful to look both for the planet that has made its morning appearance closest to the sun...particularly when it occupies the application of the Moon.? P. 391 Robbins translation. And on p. 385 he states:? If Venus rules action...and If Jupiter testifies, they will be athletes...persons deemed worthy of honours.?
In Messi's chart, Venus is in her own terms and the Moon's next aspect is to Venus and Venus is closest to the Sun. So if this was a mystery chart, we do have strong indications of a successful athlete too, using a slightly different method.

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Tienka Atema wrote:Hi all,
In charts of football players, we assume a dignified Mars.
But are we right? Players like Messi, Platini or Van Basten have superb technical skills and they express beauty in the way they play(ed). To me, that sounds more like Mercury or Venus.

I looked at the placement by sign of 11 famous players:

1 Messi: Mars in Cancer, Venus in Gemini, Mercury in Cancer.
2 Platini: Mars in Cancer, Venus in Gemini, Mercury in Gemini.
3 Van Basten: Mars in Leo, Venus in Libra, Mercury in Scorpio
4 Zidane: Mars in Cancer, Venus in Gemini, Mercury in Cancer
5 Beckenbauer: Mars in Cancer Venus in Leo, Mercury in Virgo
6 Pele: Mars in Libra Venus in Virgo, Mercury in Scorpio
7 Cantona: Mars in Taurus. Venus in Aries, Mercury in Taurus
8 Beckham: Mars in Pisces. Venus in Gemini, Mercury in Taurus
9 Cruyff: Mars in Aries. Venus in Aries, Mercury in Aries
10 Vialli: Mars in Gemini. Venus in Gemini, Mercury in Leo
11 Sepp Maier: Mars in Gemini. Venus in Aquarius, Mercury in Gemini.

I am not making a statement here and we should look at much more, but isn't it interesting? All charts can be found on the Astrodata site, except Van Basten and Cruyff. I have no time of birth of those two.

I think essential strength of Mars in player's chart is less important than being accidentally dignified and among prof. significators - having strength at MC degree or rising before Sun. Also receptions are important.
And I don't think strong Venus is indicator of profession there.

Hi Tienka

I think the Jupiter/Mars trine with mutual reception shows his success, not especially his profession.

Messi is exceptionally gifted and the general consensus is that he is a genius, and the best footballer ever exsited on the planet. 'Success' and 'abilities' are different because people without any talent can be successful too.
His genius may be explained by a combination of all those features mentioned by the contirbutors of this thread including the condition of Mercury(stationary Rx, usually considered to be a huge detrimental factor) in generosity with Moon, as mentioned by Dracon. I've personally found planets in generosity work as well as planets in reception.

What's also interesting about Messi's chart is that in nocturnal horoscope the 20s years ruled by Jupiter's firdaria, and that was perfect coincidence - 20s are perfect time for sportsman and Jupiter ruling his MC.
While Jupiter in mixed reception with Mars and Mars in own triplicity in watery sign and ruling MC triplicity.

Tienka Atema wrote:Hi all,
In charts of football players, we assume a dignified Mars.
But are we right? Players like Messi, Platini or Van Basten have superb technical skills and they express beauty in the way they play(ed). To me, that sounds more like Mercury or Venus.

I looked at the placement by sign of 11 famous players:

1 Messi: Mars in Cancer, Venus in Gemini, Mercury in Cancer.
2 Platini: Mars in Cancer, Venus in Gemini, Mercury in Gemini.
3 Van Basten: Mars in Leo, Venus in Libra, Mercury in Scorpio
4 Zidane: Mars in Cancer, Venus in Gemini, Mercury in Cancer
5 Beckenbauer: Mars in Cancer Venus in Leo, Mercury in Virgo
6 Pele: Mars in Libra Venus in Virgo, Mercury in Scorpio
7 Cantona: Mars in Taurus. Venus in Aries, Mercury in Taurus
8 Beckham: Mars in Pisces. Venus in Gemini, Mercury in Taurus
9 Cruyff: Mars in Aries. Venus in Aries, Mercury in Aries
10 Vialli: Mars in Gemini. Venus in Gemini, Mercury in Leo
11 Sepp Maier: Mars in Gemini. Venus in Aquarius, Mercury in Gemini.

I am not making a statement here and we should look at much more, but isn't it interesting? All charts can be found on the Astrodata site, except Van Basten and Cruyff. I have no time of birth of those two.

Here's Zinedine Zidane's data, not found on Astrodatabank:

born in Marseille [France], on june 23 1972 at 3 am.

RR = AA
Source: BC/BR from Didier Geslain's Dates


james

Thanks James.

Hello everybody,

I too would like to share what I see in Messi?s chart.

This is my first attempt to upload a chart and I hope it works. If the charts do not show up then follow the links and you can save them as images at a higher resolution.

Leo Messi?s Natal Figure


http://i.imgur.com/m1QZq.gif


Rank of Fame ? one of the Lights, and that is the sect one, is angular and in a masculine sign and disposes the other one who is succedent. The Moon has two bodyguards ? Saturn and an oriental Venus. The Moon and Venus cast a dexter square to the MC while Saturn casts a sinister square to the MC. Lord 1 Mercury casts a dexter trine (Firmicus says the latter is to be noted)
So a very very high profiled chart, but with this nasty opposition to malefic Saturn who is not only angular but contrary to the sect, which subtracts. Yet 5 of the 7 planets are in masculine signs.

Professional Significator ? no doubt that it is Venus. This is because what Tienka said (in the Asc and having a morning rising), but also more: Venus is visible, while Mercury will become invisible in 2 days; Mars is invisible as well. Venus is the Almuten of the MC, Venus disposes the Lot of Profession (28 Taurus) and the Lot of Spirit. Jupiter is visible, Saturn set cosmically 6 days before birth. Jupiter participates with Venus not only because he rules the MC but because he aspects Fortune (in the syzygy chart) Mercury also adds though because he rules the domicile of Venus, the Asc, Fortune, the Moon and aspects the MC.

Still, that is not by far enough to make Messi be on top of the football world. What is more is that the lord of Fortune does not see Fortune, the lord of Spirit is in aversion to Spirit, the domicile lord of the MC does not see the MC, the lord of the Ascendant does not see the Ascendant (and even if Mars collected its light and then translated it to Jupiter who is configured to the Ascendant, Mercury is severely afflicted)

The Touch of God

So what makes him stand out to such a degree? The eclipse chart contacts of course and possibly some fixed stars.
Note: the first planet/point is the planet in Messi?s chart and the second is that in the last eclipse chart (14 April 1987 2.30 58 am GMT, Rosario, Argentina, Asc 13.26 Capricorn, eclipse at 23.37 Libra). I use a 3 degree orb:

Ascendant is conjunct Mars

Lord 1 Mercury conjunct Fortune

Mars conjunct the antiscion of Mars

Jupiter opposes the Lunar Eclipse

Saturn is on the Ascendant of the Eclipse by antiscion

Saturn is square Venus



If Messi was born 6 minutes later then MC is conjunct Venus


I must say that I had never seen so many contracts in a person?s chart and of course the more contacts in prominent places, the more notable the nativity.


Now comes the truly impressive part. As no one mentioned it, I have to say that there are two charts for Messi: this one and the 8.20 pm one. Until you opened this thread Tienka Atema, I was not aware of the 6am chart. Some months ago I was analyzing the 8.20pm chart and comparing it to the one of Christiano Ronaldo. What I noticed was that Ronaldo?s chart is much more powerful than that of Messi, however, Messi?s 8.20 pm chart also receives a tremendous boost from the eclipse chart while Ronaldo?s does not. It is like God?s grace was given to Messi while Ronaldo has to work to deserve it (note that Christiano Ronaldo has a Venus Mars conjunction in Aries conjunct his Ascendant)

So I compared the 6 am and the 8.20 pm charts of Messi and what I found was so amazing that I can boldly say that I did my first rectification merely by ?looking at the sky?!!

Leo Messi 6 am chart
http://i.imgur.com/BODm3.gif


Yep, the 6am chart has the Sun conjunct the left toes of the twin Castor and Mercury conjunct the left knee of the twin Pollux!


Leo Messi 8.20 pm chart
http://i.imgur.com/j5oFl.gif



The 8.20pm chart has the Sun conjunct the right toes of Castor and Mercury conjunct the left knee of Pollux.

This is highly significant because Messi is a completely left-footed player, so much so that he has scored very very few goals with his right foot and not only that but he almost does not use it in his moves and tricks.
Once again, this is amazing!
Yes, those that say that Mercury is the significator of profession will use that and it is a really strong argument. However, look at Venus, storming ahead by riding the Celestial Bull?s horns and defeating the opponents? defence. Again, both Venus and Mercury are significators of the profession.

The fixed stars show some very prominent contacts, but unless the chart is properly rectified I would not dare use them, visually that is, as I use small orbs. What is the more is that this round time is certainly not correct. Still, I will give the stars which I found to be close and by moving the chart a few minutes some of the more powerful ones become very significant:


Fomalhaut rises at 5.47 am

Scheat of Pegasus rises 5.53 am

Markab of Pegasus rises at 5.54 am

Rasalhague of Opchiucus sets at 5.58 am

Dschubba of Scorpio sets at 5.59 19 am

Graffias of Scorpio sets at 5.59 30

Aldebaran rises at 6.10 39 am

Algol rises at 6.12 29 am



Finally, many people today claim that Messi is the best of all time. I have to say, with all due respect and as a supporter of Barcelona for the past 18 years, this is simply not serious and reminds me of the modern Astrology practitioners and their groundless claims of the superiority of everything modern. Moreover, Messi is not even close not only of being the King (Pele) but also to being in the top 3, as he is not only an incomplete player but also has not won anything on the national front yet.


P.S. The essential dignity of Mars tells us pretty much nothing as far as skills are concerned as this charts shows as do Maradona?s Djokovic?s and Federer?s which all have Mars in fall. A while back I checked the sign of Mars in all the actors that play in the film ?The Expendables?. Not a single one of them had Mars in Aries, Scorpio or Capricorn as far as I remember.

Konrad, I am sorry, I should have given you the details of Zidane.
Zagata, do you know the source of the 8.20 birth time of Messi?
And thank you for looking at his stars!
regards,
Tienka

Very interesting post Zagata.

Venus is visible, while Mercury will become invisible in 2 days; Mars is invisible as well.

Can I ask how you are establishing that - are you applying standard orbs for being under the sun's beams, constant orbs which differ for each planet, or checking the actual visibility using a software program like Stellarium?

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"Zagata, do you know the source of the 8.20 birth time of Messi?
And thank you for looking at his stars!"
regards,
Tienka

Hi Tienka,
You are welcome.
Like I said, it was some months ago but I am almost sure that I found it on astrotheme.com. At that time astrodatabank had not gotten hold of the 6 am chart and so they were not displaying any chart and when they published the 6 am one astrotheme changed theirs. At that time I also found an analysis wirtten by someone on the 8.20 pm chart and at least that analysis is still there. Here is the link:

http://solarisastrology.blogspot.com/20 ... tball.html


Deb said:

"Can I ask how you are establishing that - are you applying standard orbs for being under the sun's beams, constant orbs which differ for each planet, or checking the actual visibility using a software program like Stellarium?"

Hi Deb, and thank you very much for the forum!
I use a software and that is probably the only thing I use from Babylonian Astrology, but actual visibility is extremely important.
Actually I have Margheritta and you to thank for this as I learned about it from her website and from her post as well in your forum
It is called Planetary Solar and Lunar Visibility and it is a free program and extemely light and easy to use!

http://www.alcyone.de/planetary_lunar_a ... ility.html

Here is a screenshot from Messi's Mercury heliacal phases that happened around his birth: