Skyscript Astrology Forum

Raymond Scott wrote:I have had ongoing questions about the tropical zodiac for years, noticing even inconsistencies with some tropical zodiac astrologers using precession corrected transits,return charts. There were issues about applying Northern Hemisphere season-based zodiac for people born in the Southern Hemisphere. I notice inconsistencies about planets ruling signs and people diverging from what Ptolemy did.

Hi Raymond

Not sure what the inconsistencies are regarding planetary rulerships in tropical astrology? I know that there are discussions with some modern astrologers who say that ceres should rules taurus, for example. Is this what you mean? My understanding is that whilst some happen to use a tropical zodiac that their arguments would equally translate to a sidereal zodiac. Having said that, I find their arguments meaningless either way

Reading Cyril Fagan's books have opened my eyes. I learned that the original zodiac was Sidereal and not Tropical.

Again, I think a bit of both.

The Babylonians and Egyptians used the Sidereal Zodiac. The Greeks used the Tropical Zodiac. The Greeks seemed to mess up a lot of things that the Babylonians and Egyptians did. The Astrology that the Babylonians and Egyptians did were lunar based.

When you say the Babylonians were 'lunar based' what do you mean? Certainly the Moon was very important, but so too was the Sun.
Also what examples do you have in mind of where the Greeks 'messed up' what the Babylonians did? Do you mean the aconychal rising? In practical terms how is this different?

The Babylonians and Egyptians used 12 equal sign zodiac. The 13 zodiac signs including Ophiuchus started with the Greeks.

Which Greek/Hellenistic author uses 13 signs?

I am going to be a Sidereal Zodiac user for now on. The constellations don't get their meanings from the element,mode,and planetary ruler. All that was originated by the Greeks.

You will have seen Therese's comments that sign attributes came, partially, from planetary rulership/exlatations. If the constellations do not get their meaning from the element/mode/ruler then where do they get them from?

I believe that Astrology works because of Planetary Geometry and not because of zodiac signs and houses.

Do we need a dichotomy? Can some astrology not work via planetary geometry and other astrology work by signs and houses? For example with no signs or houses a whole branch of astrology would have to be dropped: horary.

I would use the Sidereal Zodiac, but I would only use it to measure aspects. I would also use both Geocentric and Heliocentric Charts.

But if you're not using signs then it would make no difference whether you measured from the equinox (tropical astrology), a fixed star (sidereal astrology) or any other arbitrary starting point. You'd only be measuring the distance between one planet and another. The zodiac would not be necessary then.

Declinations is a tropical coordinate, and so as a Sidereal Astrologer, I can't use them

But if you don't use the signs, in what way are you a sidereal astrologer? In other words if you're not actually using the zodiac surely you're not a sidereal astrologer, nor a tropical astrologer?

Looking at me from a 20th Century Astrological view wouldn't give a complete picture about who and what I am.

I find this very interesting and I wonder how true it is. For example I believe that most forms of astrology manage to encapsulate the native in some form or another. For example if I strip away the outer planets and use only the traditional ones and interpret my chart in a traditional style, it makes a great deal of sense. If I add them back in and interpret it from a modern psychological style, well that makes sense too, though in places the context shifts.

It might be interesting to post your chart here and have a traditional sidereal astrologer using the sidereal sign places interpret your chart.

I don't think Mainstream Astrology can give insight into my neurodivergent conditions.

But surely you are much more than your neurodivergence. You're still a person who loves and feels and worries about their career and health and romance and all the rest just like every other person does, divergent or not. Now of course neurodivergence is an important factor in your life, but the point is that it is surely not the only one.

A lot of astrologers will look at planetary afflictions like neurodivergent conditions are disorders. Who are they to consider us as disordered?

I understand what you are saying, however you seem to contradict yourself here, because just in the previous sentence you say "I believe that the same astrological indicators for neurodivergence as the same or similar to astrological indicators for serious psychiatric disorders because of the strong overlap between them"

I think most astrologers, like most people, would see neurodivergent behaviours as behaviours which are outside what would be considered the norm - the norm of course being highly mutable to begin with anyway. For example I have a slight stammer, it's on my father's side and several people in my family have it to some degree or another. Mine is pretty mild. If I look to my chart I might strip out my outer planets and note that Mercury is combust in the 8th house and so can be considered afflicted. If I add them back in I notice an opposition of Mercury to Uranus, a planet of disruption and volatility. Either of these might describe these condition. But any person, astrologer or otherwise, who considered it a disorder, would, perhaps not be necessarily wrong, in that the what we consider normal for speech would not be a stutter. If they said "it's unnatural" that's a different thing altogether.

Please.....Next time I post, I'd appreciate that you don't bring my grammar,language,and communication irregularities into it.

Raymond

Regarding James' comment on your writing style, I don't think it was meant as a critique, more as a suggestion that writing style can affect how easily a passage can be read - in that sense I genuinely think he was trying to help you. In other words I think he was saying that he struggled to follow along as, for him, the words didn't necessarily flow and suggesting a way in which it might help you communicate to a wider audience.
However, I can see where you are coming from. You are specifically not trying to make global 'truth' claims. Instead you're trying to make sure that everyone knows that this is simply your own viewpoint, hence the "i" statements. You are being clear that this is just your view and your experience.



(btw as you're not really using a sidereal zodiac here, I wonder how relevant these topics are to this forum. Maybe the general astrology forum instead as your promoting non-sidereal approaches like heliocentric astrology and so on? I dunno. maybe the admins may choose to move it there?)

First I want to make a disclaimer:

This is just post on a theory that I have.
You could say that it's just a belief,view,or opinion.
Therefore, I am not passing things as fact or knowledge.
I am the type of person that doesn't believe in having knowledge of any kind because I think that whatever knowledge that I do have is only relative to what I believe,think,have view or opinion of. Therefore, I hate using words like "I know." I only want to share what I learn and understand and even that can be argued as relative because whatever I learn and understand may not even actual learning and understanding. It could just be a perception and even an illusion.




Transneptunian Dwarf Planets and Overexcitabilities



"Dabrowski's Theory of Positive Disintegration


"Dabrowski talked about OE's - over-excitabilities ("superstimulatabilities"), and how the gifted were extremely sensitive in a variety of areas. It's a stimulus-response difference from the norms. It means that in these 5 areas a person reacts more strongly than normal for a longer period than normal to a stimulus that may be very small. It involves not just psychological factors but central nervous system sensitivity."
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/dabrowski.htm


I believe that the transneptunian dwarf planets are factors. For years on astrological forums, I have strongly hinted at the connection between neurodivergence and metaphysical orientation. I have also raised awareness about the overlapping traits between neurodivergence and psychiatric disorders like schizophrenia. I have talked about the transneptunian dwarf planets as possibly factors for all of them because I actually believe all those things are connected to each other.


According to Philip Sedgwick: Transneptunian dwarf planets are considered evolutionary intensified objects.

"Evolutionary Intensified Objects. Evolutionary suggests that emotional and spiritual crisis induced by the presence and passage of these bodies intends to enhance the insight, inspiration, creativity and consciousness of a person on Earth and through events on Earth containing these bodies in significant locations."



This is my take:

I believe that the energy of the transneptunian dwarf planets involve lessons,experiences that can really make or break you. The hard aspects tend to indicate the possibility of experiencing some type of trauma which may be trying to the spirit but can eventually help you to grow spiritually. What doesn't kill you can make you stronger is something that can be applied to the transneptunian dwarf planets,transneptunian dwarf planet candidates.

They are highly metaphysical energies that involve insight,inspiration,and creativity that should be used not just for your benefit but for the benefit of many others. These energies are about about going well beyond self and tapping into that mass consciousness. There is a potential to really make a mark on the world and affect people on a grand scale.

Saturn is the planet known as the planet of physical boundaries. All the planets beyond Saturn are referred to as outerplanets, and so they are related to metaphysical energies. Uranus is the planet of liberation from boundaries as it breaks way with its need for independence,and it is associated with innovation and intuitive flashes. Neptune is the planet of dissolution of boundaries as it pierces the veil to reveal another world,and it is associated with imagination,inspiration, and psychism. Pluto is the planet of elimination of boundaries, and is compared to being the other side. This could be death,afterlife,or could be the subterranean depths of the human psyche. It is possible that Pluto's fellow transneptunian objects could be similar to Pluto. I believe that Pluto and its fellow transneptunians can be energies so metaphysical that they can be hard to handle and can manifest as problems on the physical plane.

Their very distant location,their tendency to orbit off the ecliptic as well as some of them with highly elliptical orbits make them objects that are divergent from the planets. Therefore, people with strong transneptunian energies can be divergent from the norm. They can be quite the nonconformists. I suspect that these are the same people that can relate to personality types like Indigo,Crystal,Earth Angel,Lightworker too. The same energies could be prominent in people with neurodivergences like Dyslexia,Dyspraxia,ADHD, Autistic Spectrum. The energies could be prominent in people that are schizophrenic,bipolar. The symptoms/traits of neurodivergence overlap with those of schizophrenia,bipolar. Because of the narrow-minded views about the metaphysical and sensitivities by scientific,mental health commmunity, metaphysically oriented types could get misdiagnosed as schizophrenics or bipolars. Transneptunian dwarf planet people can find it hard to live in a society with mainstream religion and psychiatry.

I believe that people strong in transneptunian dwarf planet energy are people that are ahead of their time which reflects how transneptunians weren't discovered until 1990's except for Pluto in 1930. I think that Pluto's fellow big transneptunians are very complex objects,and so it make sense that they are not easy to understand exactly how they work. That fits perfectly with them being objects that orbit beyond Neptune and being discovered in the 21st Century. They are so recently discovered,and so they aren't understood well. Of course, they are complex and mysterious objects - far more so than Pluto. It would make sense for people strong in the 21st Century objects to be complex,mysterious,and not easy to understand. The transneptunians as extremely primitive remnants of the solar system could mean that people strong in transneptunian dwarf planet energy are also deeply connected to the past. It is said that highly metaphysically oriented people are intuitive,perceptive,and deeply connected to both the past and future that would be in synchronicity with how transneptunian objects are very primitive solar system remnants discovered later than the planets. The transneptunians failed to form as planets. I see that as like how transneptunian dwarf planet people don't fit in easily with other people. Their belief in and practice of metaphysical,occult systems can be seen as too primitive by mainstream people that believe in knowledge of science. The transneptunians are so far away from the Sun, that they are shrouded in darkness. These transneptunians can be viewed as the shadow,and deep unconscious of a person. Many Transneptunian dwarf planet people's beliefs in metaphysical,occult systems can be be viewed as being "dark" by people that hold conservative religious beliefs.

Astrologers tend to focus on Moon,Neptune,and Watersigns in regards to sensitivity, but I actually believe that the ultrasensitive nature of Pluto has been overlooked. Neptune is said to be the planet of ultrasensitivity. As an object that orbits beyond Neptune, it would make sense for Pluto to be associated with ultrasensitivity that is more pronounced than Neptune. Pluto is associated with intensity. Maybe the intensity is actually connected to an ultrasensitivity. For the more we react to stimuli and internalize it, the more intense we are. Now we know that Pluto isn't the only object in the transneptunian regions of our solar system. Pluto's fellow transneptunian dwarf planets could also be similar to Pluto. Sedna has the greatest average distance of all objects in our solar system, and so it make sense to be an object that is associated with the greatest ultrasensitivity and intensity.

In Wrong Planet Group which is a group for Autistic Spectrum people, an Aspie asked if Aspies feel things more intensely than NT's. Aspie is another term for Aspergers. NT stands for Neurotypical which means normal neurological processing people. There was talk about feeling but internalizing as the intensity of feeling is often overwhelming. The Aspies said that it has to do with sensory issues that include heightened senses. They say that they are more emotionally intense than most. I said that I could relate even though I don't have Aspergers Syndrome. I said that I am Dyslexic,Dyspraxic,ADHD, and so I am not an NT. I pointed out that sensory processing/integation issues is common in people with neurodivergent condtions in general and not just autistic spectrum. I also said that some people even wonder if sensory processing/integration issues and Dyspraxia are one and the same. I even pointed out that Dyslexia,Dyspraxia,and ADHD overlap in symptoms/traits as well as have considerable co-morbidity. I said that I wouldn't generalize NT's. I pointed out that not all NT's are the same. I said that definitely not all non-Autistic Spectrum people are the same for there are other ND's that aren't autistic spectrum that don't fit the neurological norms. I find it interesting that Autistic Spectrum people talk about feeling more intensely than NT's. It makes sense when you look at it from the view of overexcitabilities. I believe that the transneptunian dwarf planet energy is strongly connected to overexcitabilities, sensory processing/integration issues,and neurodivergent conditions.

People that are into Metaphysical,New Age beliefs label overexcitabilities as traits as "Indigo", "Crystal", "Earth Angel", and "Lightworker." which they are linked to being gifted. Overexcitabilities are said to be a very common thing in gifted people

I believe that transneptunian dwarf planet is strongly connected to all these things.

"I understand what you are saying, however you seem to contradict yourself here, because just in the previous sentence you say "I believe that the same astrological indicators for neurodivergence as the same or similar to astrological indicators for serious psychiatric disorders because of the strong overlap between them"


Sighs........Maybe I am stupid when it comes to expressing myself and try to make points.


In this forum, I try to make some points about overlapping traits of neurodivergent conditions and psychiatric disorders. Why do you think I was misdiagnosed by psychiatrists as having bipolar disorder with schizoaffective disorder. Why do you think part of my Neurodiversity Advocacy/Activism is to help raise awareness about the overlapping traits between neurodivergent conditions and psychiatric disorders? Why do you think I want to help prevent psychiatric misdiagnosing of neurodivergents.

http://www.sunmoonastrology.com/display ... 0837218143






I don't believe in mainstream Astrology any more, and I am not going to defend my views about that. I don't expect anybody to have to defend their views about Astrology. I have studied Astrology since 1998, and I have done a lot of free readings and given free reports to others over the years using Mainstream Astrology. It's just that I started having doubts and my views started changing in 2008.

I share the views of cosmobiologists. They don't use house systems.
They hardly focus on zodiac signs. Uranian Astrologers don't use zodiac signs, and many of them don't use house signs either. The approach that Ruth Brummond is all geometrical based. Magi Astrology doesn't use zodiac signs nor houses. None of those astrological systems are necessarily wrong for not being like Mainstream Astrology with their use of zodiac sign and house interpretation.


I share the following views with cosmobiologists who consider the following:


The combination of the unique characteristic of each planet involved.

The role a particular aspect plays in relation to the entire chart as a unit.

How the individual chooses to react in given circumstances (positively or negatively)

Environmental conditions.


I agree with what Eleanor Kimmel wrote in her book, Cosmobiology for the 21st Century

"Most astrologers agree that the houses are areas of experiences. But, for instance, is there any proof that the planet Pluto in the ninth house means the same thing for everyone? Would it not be more proper to establish, by research, a common tendency emanating from the qualties of Pluto and leave the "flavor and coloring," etc. , to the environmental, hereditary, cultural, and national factors? After all, ice cream is still ice cream when colored and flavored, and there are more than twelve colors."


Heck...Reinhold Ebertin didn't use any house system because he doubted the validity of them.

The cosmobiologists and uranian astrologers use dials in their work to find planetary pictures.

Johannes Kepler question zodiac signs and house systems.


Those are astrologers that influenced me.

An astrologer can use Cosmobiology,Uranian Astrology,and/or Magi Astrology with Sidereal Zodiac. The last time that I checked, I never read a rule that only Sidereal Zodiac Astrologers have to use zodiac sign and house intepretation, and that's the same thing with Tropical Zodiac Astrologers.



Like I said before

I see tropical astrologers try to validate the tropical zodiac and invalidate the sidereal zodiac.
I see sidereal astrologers try to validate the sidereal zodiac and invalidate the tropical zodiac.

Both factions make points to support their view.

I don't know what to think and believe when it comes to zodiacs.

It was only the middle of last month, I decided to look into what the Western Sidereal Zodiac astrologers have to say.

I have been talked down to by Western Sidereal Zodiac Astrologers in the past because I used a Tropical Zodiac for interpretation.

When I say that I don't believe in Tropical Zodiac any more, I am given a hard time by some Tropical Zodiac astrologers and then get the "Neptune card" thrown in the face. These are astrologers that use asteroids like I do, and they use hypothetical planets which I don't use. Who the hell are they to accuse me of being in Neptune delusion for diverging from the Tropical Zodiac? What hypocrites!

It's the same thing with house systems.


I feel like I am seeing a conflict between Protestants and Catholics in Christianity or a conflict between Muslims and Christians when it comes to religion. I don't want any part of it.

No wonder Astrology is not recognized as a valid science and viewed as pseudoscience. It's partly the astrological community's fault for that because of the long time discord in the astrological community.

No wonder I don't want to use any zodiac intepretation nor house interpretation.


Any ways...I switched to the Sidereal Zodiac to use as reference point for aspects. I already made a point about the time differences between the Sidereal Zodiac and Tropical Zodiac. I thought about using tropical zodiac and using precession corrected with transits and return charts like Jamie Partridge does.
I find it easier just for me to compare 2 Sidereal Zodiac charts to look at transits to natal in the Solar Fire Program.

I only use tropical zodiac when I do astrological posts because I want to prevent any communication problems.



Here is a list of astrologers that have been huge influence on my divergent
approach to Astrology

Philip Sedgwick (I have his Galactic Trilogy CD and had a heliocentric
astrological consultation with him...he got me permanently interested in heliocentric astrology....he is also into the use of centaurs,transneptunians,and deep space objects)
http://philipsedgwick.com/

Zane Stein (If it wasn't for him, I wouldn't be into transneptunians and
centaurs.......it was his article on Eris that got me very interested in Eris)
http://www.zanestein.com/chiron.htm

Juan Revilla (I use his Riyal program, and his views influenced me like his view
that orbital symbolism of centaurs,transneptunians need to be taken into account and can't just go by the name for insight)
http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/

Mark Andrew Holmes (he is the one that got me interested in minor aspects with asteroids)
http://markandrewholmes.com/

Jonathan Dunn (I love his site...you can calculate nodes and perihelion/aphelion of any object....even check out right ascension and declination as well as other coordinates)
http://www.true-node.com/eph1/

Martha Lang-Wescott (I have 2 of her books on Asteroid Planetary Picture Astrology...I thought her approach was too
complicated for me, but now I am gaining more interest in her work but without the hypothetical transneptunians)
http://treehousemountain.com/

Zipporah Dobyns (I have her book, The Node Book which includes material on Geocentric Planetary Nodes which also includes the Nodes of the 4 major asteroids)
http://ccrsdodona.org/m_dilemma/awindex.html

Theodor Landscheidt (I have his books, Cosmic Cybernetics, Sun-Earth-Man.....I got interested in Golden Section Aspects and Geocentric Planetary Nodes because of him....I even found out that 3 planets can be in a golden section aspect to each other and form a triangle with corresponding planetary pictures which means that the golden section aspects definitely share a certain harmonic which is unknown)
http://bourabai.narod.ru/landscheidt/consider.htm

Demetria George and Douglas Bloch (I have their book, Astrology For Yourself....it has a lot of material on asteroids)
http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Books/Astrolo ... 0892541225

Robert Blaschke (I all of his books except for the one on Holographic Transits.
http://earthwalkastrology.com/

Eleanor Kimmel (I have her book, Cosmobiology For the 21st Century)

Robert Hand (I have his book, Horoscope Symbols which helped me understand midpoints,planetary pictures and their connection to harmonics as well as why wide orb aspects aren't necessary...I also have his book, Planets in Transit)

Magi Society (I have their 3rd book....they helped me get interest in
Declinations........also reading their site, they seem to have strong interest
in Uranian Astrological methods like planetary pictures which they refer to as
Magi Quads)
http://www.magisociety.com/index.php

David Cochrane (He influenced my interest in Harmonics..I have his Kepler Astrological software and his book, Astrology For the 21st Century.

now Cyril Fagan (I have changed to Sidereal Zodiac because of him........I have his books, Zodiacs Old And New, Primer of Sidereal Astrology)

I also have History of the Zodiac by Robert Powell.


I think all these astrologers have made contributions to Astrology in their own way. That's only relative perception.

I believe that everything in Astrology is relative. That is why there is so much diversity as well as lack of consensus of things in Astrology. Unfortunately, there is a lot of discord too.


I am not afraid to change my views.
I have done Mainstream Astrology for a good amount of years, but it's just not for me any more. It's just don't feel that it's my path. There is nothing wrong with. We all have our own path in life, and that includes Astrology.
I also want to progress by embracing the 21st Century Solar System, and so I want an Astrology for the 21st Century. I even told Philip Sedgwick that.
Using Heliocentric Astrology and the recent astrological discoveries will be part of that system. Heck...it's based on what Philip Sedgwick does any way.
If you want to jump and criticize me.......then you might as well jump on and criticize Philip Sedgwick and other astrologers like him like Zane Stein, Melanie Reinhart, and Juan Revilla.

There are actually astrologers that progressed and been looking into recent astronomical discoveries. They even proposed names for objects that got accepted like Nessus which is the first object whose name was proposed by astrologers and accepted by astronomers. They studied the orbital elements of Nessus, and they came up with a name that fit with orbital elements like how it links the orbits of Saturn and Pluto. Therefore, they have the view that Saturn/Pluto midpoint is Nessus-sensitive. These are astrologers that have made an attempt to be part of a bridge between Astrology and Astronomy.

Raymond Scott wrote:"I understand what you are saying, however you seem to contradict yourself here, because just in the previous sentence you say "I believe that the same astrological indicators for neurodivergence as the same or similar to astrological indicators for serious psychiatric disorders because of the strong overlap between them"


Sighs........Maybe I am stupid when it comes to expressing myself and try to make points.

No you're not. But it seems at odds with your other statement hence why I highlighted it for some clarity. It sounds to me like on the one hand you're telling astrologers off for lumping neurodivergence with disorders saying, who are they to call you disordered, but then on the other hand you're highlighting yourself how the astrological signatures of both can strongly overlap. So it's hardly any wonder that they might confuse one for the other, or lump them together.

I don't believe in mainstream Astrology any more, and I am not going to defend my views about that. I don't expect anybody to have to defend their views about Astrology.

Right, I agree, you shouldn't have to defend your views. But seeing as you've chosen to raise those views here, it won't be a surprise that some people will read them and then question you on them. Defend them? No. But that won't mean that people won't question them either to understand them or to enquire how you solve issues or problems that they themselves may have with the mainstream astrology.

Of course in today's age more and more astrologers are using unusual techniques and adding in many asteroids and TNOs and using a wide variety of zodiacs. In a curious way, the ones who are the most radical these days seem to be those who are most conservative with their astrology, paring down rather than building up. Using less rather than using more. There's some irony to that I think.

Raymond Scott wrote: I share the following views with cosmobiologists who consider the following:


The combination of the unique characteristic of each planet involved.

The role a particular aspect plays in relation to the entire chart as a unit.

How the individual chooses to react in given circumstances (positively or negatively)

Environmental conditions.

And, might I add to this list, not just cosmobiologists, but also the mainstream astrologers also, they too consider all of the above points.

"Most astrologers agree that the houses are areas of experiences. But, for instance, is there any proof that the planet Pluto in the ninth house means the same thing for everyone? Would it not be more proper to establish, by research, a common tendency emanating from the qualties of Pluto and leave the "flavor and coloring," etc. , to the environmental, hereditary, cultural, and national factors? After all, ice cream is still ice cream when colored and flavored, and there are more than twelve colors."

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate with this argument for a second. Eleanor suggests that there's no proof for Pluto in the 9th meaning the same for everyone. But this overlooks a simple premise - that mainstream astrologers claim that it does. The problem of course is that they don't.

And if we want to use this 'is there any evidence' idea, why not apply this to everything else. Is there any evidence that Pluto trine Moon means the same for everyone? Of course not. But again, nobody claimed that it does.

So really Eleanor to some degree is committing a bit of a strawman argument here.

An astrologer can use Cosmobiology,Uranian Astrology,and/or Magi Astrology with Sidereal Zodiac. The last time that I checked, I never read a rule that only Sidereal Zodiac Astrologers have to use zodiac sign and house intepretation, and that's the same thing with Tropical Zodiac Astrologers.

Right, but in what real sense is that sidereal? In what way is the sidereal zodiac being utilised?

...
No wonder I don't want to use any zodiac intepretation nor house interpretation.

I remember when I used an equal house chart one time some astrologer criticised me spendidly for it. Didn't I know that the only real house system was Whole signs, which are oldest and most accurate? So I used whole sign houses and of course it didn't take long for someone to point out that whole signs are for people who use traditional anitquated astrology that doesn't involve free will and I should use placidus cusps instead. So I used Placidus cusps, and of course it didn't take long to be reminded that those idiotic placidean cusps break down at the pole, I should be using topocentric cusps instead. And so I used topocentric cusps but did I not realise that the Huber clock only works with Koch houses which, let's face it, is practically proof that Koch is where it's really at. And so I used Koch and then got mocked by the horary astrologers who reminded me that Regiomontanus was used successfully in page after page of Christian Astrology and what was I doing with these invented topocentric cusps anyway. And so I used Regiomontanus and eventually a medievally inclined astrologer pointed out the absurdity of those cusps and demonstrated the superiority of alchabitus cusps.

On and on it goes.

Fact is that every astrologer will tell you what the 'right' house system is, or the 'right' zodiac. But just because everyone disagrees doesn't mean the only conclusion is to drop them altogether.

I can guarantee you that there are cosmobiologists who will disagree with one another, Uranian astrologers who have dissenting views. That's just because that's people for you - they disagree.

We'll never have a unified voice on astrology, we have to just have a look ourselves and make up our own minds on what we're comfortable with using.

If you want to jump and criticize me.......then you might as well jump on and criticize Philip Sedgwick and other astrologers like him like Zane Stein, Melanie Reinhart, and Juan Revilla.

People haven't criticised you.
But as an interesting aside, did you know that Melanie Reinhart, when she turns to doing horary, dispenses with using the asteroids and interprets much like any traditional horary astrologer does?

Perhaps there's a place for everything.

":No you're not. But it seems at odds with your other statement hence why I highlighted it for some clarity. It sounds to me like on the one hand you're telling astrologers off for lumping neurodivergence with disorders saying, who are they to call you disordered, but then on the other hand you're highlighting yourself how the astrological signatures of both can strongly overlap. So it's hardly any wonder that they might confuse one for the other, or lump them together."

I am trying to make a point that neurodivergence and psychiatric disorders overlap in characteristics, and that's why I think the astrological signatures overlap.
I am just trying to be logical about that.

many neurodivergents do have misdiagnoses.
A lot of neurodivergents also have co-morbidity of neurodivergence and psychiatric disorders even bipolar and schizophrenia.
Maybe there is a possibility that neurodivergents who are diagnosed as schizophrenics and bipolars are actually metaphysically oriented.

In his books, Dr Harold N. Levinson talked about the problems of neurodivergents being mistook for psychiatric problems.

the late Mary Colley who founded Developmental Adult Neuro-Diversity Association (DANDA) also told me that a lot of neurodivergents have been misdiagnosed bipolar, schizophrenic in UK.

Autism used to be thought as a type of schizophrenia.
Even now, anti-psychotics are being used to treat symptoms of Autism.



For example: left-right confusion,disorganization, problems with eye contact, speech disturbances, and memory problems are symptoms that schizophrenia shares with neurodivergent conditions. Half of schizophrenics have history of delays in speech and motor skills like neurodivergents. There is no telling how many schizophrenics are actually neurodivergents.



In the book, THE BIPOLAR CHILD by Demetri Paplos, oversensitivity to environmental influences was listed as one of the very common symptoms/traits of bipolar children. Learning disabilities was listed as one of the common symptoms/traits of bipolar children. They also listed Aspergers Syndrome as one of the medical conditions that tends to be misdiagnosed as bipolar.


It's common for many neurodivergents to have feelings of inadequacy. Feelings of insecurity and low self esteem may lead them to be very shy, not socialize with others, and be hypersensitive to criticism. They might feel dumb and/or ugly. Many of them tend to have feelings of confusion and uncertainty about who they are.They may believe that they need to depend on people to help them with certain things that they have difficulty with. They can appear to be a bit odd and unusual to others. Many of them tend to have emotional melt downs that is connected to being highly emotional and ultrasensitive. They may act out lot,having problems regulating their emotions and behavior. They can appear to be unstable. Many of them have problems with social skills due to problems with language processing,understanding emotional/social cues,and/or coordination. Overall, they are very complex and hard to pin down. This can lead to them as being diagnosed as having certain psychiatric disorders.

http://www.sunmoonastrology.com/display ... 6600677376


an example

My New Orleans,Louisiana born Black father was a neurodivergent with dyslexic,dyspraxic,adhd,autistic characteristics, and he was a diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. He had a very similar personality and temperament as me. Furthermore, he was a strong believer in Voodoo Magick. It seems that his grandmother was actually a Voodoo practitioner herself. She used snakes to put on porch to ward off negative spirits. Voodoo practitioners believe in the divinity of snakes and their power in protection. He was a metaphysically oriented neurodivergent who was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. He had many of the same neurodivergent issues....including issues with speech and eye contact could have easily got him labeled schizophrenic as well as his superstitiousness getting labeled schizophrenic too. Not to mention being black man born in 1941 wasn't easy for him. There is history of psychiatrists of overdiagnosing and misdiagnosing blacks as schizophrenic too. He was pretty much screwed as a metaphysically oriented neurodivergent black man.



shrugs.....I don't what else to do to explain myself.
I give up.

Paul wrote:as an interesting aside, did you know that Melanie Reinhart, when she turns to doing horary, dispenses with using the asteroids and interprets much like any traditional horary astrologer does?

I have discussed horary with Melanie and have good reason to believe she is comfortable adjusting to a more traditional approach for that, but unless she has recently stated that she dispenses with using asteroids in horary, I should point out that I heard her refer to an asteroid connection in a horary chart discussion last year. So I don't think she completely dispenses with them, even for horary - and why should she if she notes alignments that mean something to her as the interpreting astrologer?

Hello Raymond,

Re: "Even now, psychotics are being used to treat symptoms of Autism."

Can you elaborate what you mean by this?

Psychotics are people that are suffering from psychosis. How are these people being used to treat symptoms of Autism?

I don't understand what you mean and am curious just how this works.

Peace

James

Deb wrote:

Paul wrote:as an interesting aside, did you know that Melanie Reinhart, when she turns to doing horary, dispenses with using the asteroids and interprets much like any traditional horary astrologer does?

I have discussed horary with Melanie and have good reason to believe she is comfortable adjusting to a more traditional approach for that, but unless she has recently stated that she dispenses with using asteroids in horary, I should point out that I heard her refer to an asteroid connection in a horary chart discussion last year. So I don't think she completely dispenses with them, even for horary - and why should she if she notes alignments that mean something to her as the interpreting astrologer?

Hi Deb

I'm referring to a comment she made once where she says that she only uses the asteroids if they appear pertinent to the matter at hand, and she went on to explicitly use horary as an example wherein she says that she uses traditional rulerships and judges accordingly, only noting the asteroids after this to fully flesh up a picture for herself.
(PS I certainly wasn't trying to misalign Melanie's comments so if I've gotten this wrong, then I retract it completely - I can only go by memory of what she said, perhaps I misunderstood)

The point I was trying to make that perhaps there is a place for everything - there is a place for the use of asteroids as being of near pivotal importance, and a place for where their use is limited, a place where perhaps the aspects are more crucial, and a place where houses and signs are more crucial.

EDIT
Perhaps it would have been more accurate had I said "dispenses with focusing on the asteroids", rather than saying using the asteroids. But as I say, if I'm incorrect on this then I've obviously confused what she meant and I stand corrected.

It's an aside, but I'd go along with that. Next time I see her I'll ask her (just out of interest) but I think she'd be happy enough with what you've written above.

Raymond, I am always happy to see a convert to the sidereal zodiac like yourself. You have some interesting ideas, but since this is a forum and not a magazine, others like to read posts that are a little shorter than yours. My older eyes stall out when trying to read long paragraphs.

So to reach others with your ideas and thoughts, a few less words would work better. (I also am always having to find fewer words to express what I want to say on forums, and have to remind myself, "Therese, you are not wriiting an article for a magazine.")

Thanks for joining us!

Therese