Hence ancient astrologers said Saturn had its 'joy' in Aquarius. This would be more marked in a day chart.

Ah the above probably answered my question.

Mark wrote:Jorge wrote;

Remember those were the days of flat Earth.

Oh dear you are really showing up your ignorance of astronomical and astrological history. Ancient astronomer/astrologers like Ptolemy believed the earth was spherical. As for your wider the issue of southern hemisphere astrology does undeniably throw up searching questions for tropicalists. I actually opened a thread on this very topic some years ago which got some very thoughtful replies. http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1172 Unfortunately, some of the more shallow siderealists use this issue as a cheap debating point. Of course if we are going to play that kind of game siderealists have the dilemma of the growing lack of seasonal alignment between the sidereal signs and the seasons. Hence we have the equinox occurring in a mutable (Pisces) or fixed sign ( Aquarius). This confusion of where the spring equinox even is sidereally highlights the dilemma of not one but numerous 'sidereal zodiacs' with different starting points. I dont make these point to take a cheap pot shot at siderealists but just to demonstrate that any system of astrology throws up challenging issues which need to be engaged with by its practitioners. Mark

Well the signs are only slighty related to seasons.Otherwise there would be no signs for those born at the Equator.Theyre all born in the Summer

Jorge wrote:

Suppose then one is born with Saturn in capricorn by day.Since Saturn is favorable by day,would that Saturn function like a Saturn in Aquarius?
And the reverse for a night birth with Sat in Aquarius?

No and no. The signs dont swap meanings due to planetary sect. Capricorn is a cardinal, nocturnal, feminine, earthy, and animal sign. Aquarius is a fixed, masculine, diurnal, airy, and human. Aquarius is linked to the sanguine humour and Capricorn the melancholic.

A planet out of sect works less effectively for the native. In a case of Saturn in Capricorn in a night chart it could still be negative because in this chart it is the malefic out of sect. We all have either Saturn (night births) or Mars (day births) working as the malefic out of sect. Even with essential dignity it can work against us. For example, I was looking at a woman's chart yesterday with Saturn in Capricorn in a night chart where Saturn was in the 5th house by Whole sign + Placidus. I will not go into too much detail but a major tragedy of her life was her inability to have children. She is now in her early 50's.

Mark

Mark wrote:Jorge wrote:

Suppose then one is born with Saturn in capricorn by day.Since Saturn is favorable by day,would that Saturn function like a Saturn in Aquarius? And the reverse for a night birth with Sat in Aquarius?

No and no. The signs dont swap meanings due to planetary sect. Capricorn is a cardinal, nocturnal, feminine earthy, and animal sign. Aquarius is a fixed, masculine, diurnal, airy, and human. Aquarius is linked to the sanguine humour and Capricorn the melancholic. A planet out of sect works less effectively for the native. In a case of Saturn in Capricorn in a night chart it could still be negative because in this chart it is the malefic out of sect. We all have either Saturn (night births) or Mars (day births) working as the malefic out of sect. Even with essential dignity it can work against us. For example, I was looking at a woman's chart yesterday with Saturn in Capricorn in a night chart where Saturn was in the 5th house by Whole sign + Placidus. I will not go into too much detail but a major tragedy of her life was her inability to have children. She is now in her early 50's. Mark

You hit the nail in the thread.My sister born at night,has Saturn in cappy in 6th,Placidus,cant have kids. She was operated to remove fat from her belly,in the process they had to remove her Ovaries. One for Placidus too as in WSH she would have Sat in 7 . Plus Jupiter in Scorpio in 5. Amazing

What if in the day chart Mars is conjunct Venus,which likes the day.Does that makes Venus stronger even if Mars is exalted by sign,though not by degree?

come to think of it,a conjunction betwen Venus and Mars or Mars and Sun can never be good as one will always be out of sect. In day birth Mars will make the person hot tempered or overly sexual in love A Saturn Jupiter conj will invariably be nice

update: my midtake venus is a night planet,so,venus mars conjunction can only be good by night
by day must be...overwhelming

Jorge wrote:

What if in the day chart Mars is conjunct Venus,which likes the day.Does that makes Venus stronger even if Mars is exalted by sign,though not by degree?

Delineation obviously involves various factors like house rulerships, house placement, essential dignity, aspects, receptions etc etc etc.

However, in general terms we have the same issue of Mars operating as a planet that has essential dignity but being the malefic out of sect in a day chart. Although, there is some mitigation with Mars in a feminine, nocturnal sign (Capricorn). Mars is preferable at night chart in a feminine sign. The ancients said Mars had its 'joy' in Scorpio. In a night chart the heat of Mars is moderated by the coolness of the night. Similarly in a day chart the coldness of Saturn is moderated by the heat of the day.

I try to avoid terms like 'weak' or 'strong' as they are over used in traditional astrology. I prefer to see a planet in sect -ideally by day/night, sign, and above/below horizon as simply more effective or harmonious. Planetary phase in relation to the sun also impacts on planetary sect and the condition of planets.

Many ancient astrologers treated planetary sect as equally as important as essential dignity in assessing the effectiveness of a planet. However, the emphasis on sect declined in medieval astrology and was a relatively minor consideration by the time of 17th century astrologers like Lilly. It has completely disappeared from the radar of modern astrologers.

If anyone wants to follow this topic up I highly recommend Robert Hand's book:

Night and Day: Planetary Sect in Astrology

Its available from his ARHAT website:

http://www.arhatmedia.com/newavailpub.htm

Mark

Mark wrote:Jorge

What if in the day chart Mars is conjunct Venus,which likes the day.Does that makes Venus stronger even if Mars is exalted by sign,though not by degree?

Delineation obviously involves various factors like house rulerships, house placement, essential dignity, aspects, receptions etc etc etc. However, in general terms we have the same issue of Mars operating as a planet that has essential dignity but being the malefic out of sect in a day chart. Although, there is some mitigation with Mars in a feminine, nocturnal sign (Capricorn). Mars is preferable in night chart in a feminine sign. The ancients said Mars had its 'joy' in Scorpio. In a night chart the heat of Mars is moderated by the coolness of the night. Similarly in a day chart the coldness of Saturn is moderated by the heat of the day. I try to avoid terms like 'weak' or 'strong' as they are over used in traditional astrology. I prefer to see a planet in sect -ideally by day/night, sign, and above/below horizon as simply more effective or harmonious. Planetary phase in relation to the sun also impacts on planetary sect and the condition of planets. Many ancient astrologers treated planetary sect as equally as important as essential dignity in assessing the effectiveness of a planet. However, the emphasis on sect declined in medieval astrology and was a relatively minor consideration by the time of 17th century astrologers like Lilly. It has completely disappeared from the radar of modern astrologers. If anyone wants to follow this topic up I highly recommend Robert Hand's book: Night and Day: Planetary Sect in Astrology Its available from his ARHAT website: http://www.arhatmedia.com/newavailpub.htm Mark

Why would they ignore sect? People don`t abandon something without a reason. Yet yor example of the lady who cant have kids is telling of the power of sect. Unless her Saturn has evil aspects regardless of sect?

Jorge wrote:

Why would they ignore sect? People don`t abandon something without a reason. Yet yor example of the lady who cant have kids is telling of the power of sect. Unless her Saturn has evil aspects regardless of sect?

I dont think it was a conscious decision to abandon sect. It seems in the transmission from the Greeks to the Persians and Arabs much was 'lost in translation'. Hence the emphasis moved away from the fundamental focus on the chart being night or day. Emphasis was still made on whether planets were above or below the horizon and sign placement. However, much of the basic philosophy underlying sect was lost so the idea obviously made less sense or was at least seen as a relatively minor consideration.

Unless her Saturn has evil aspects regardless of sect?

In the chart concerned Saturn was in a separating opposition to the Moon in Cancer in the 11th. Although the aspect was a few degrees past perfection I do think it was very significant with the life affirming Moon being opposed WS by Saturn which is inimical to life. The Moon in Cancer was very prominent in this person's primary motivation over her Sagittarian Sun. I attributed this to the combination of the Moon's dignity, good house placement and its status as the sect light of the chart. This seemed to resonate with the native who had trained as a nurse and spent much of her life caring for sick relatives.

Mark

Mark wrote:Jorge wrote:

Why would they ignore sect? People don`t abandon something without a reason. Yet yor example of the lady who cant have kids is telling of the power of sect. Unless her Saturn has evil aspects regardless of sect?

I dont think it was a conscious decision to abandon sect. It seems in the transmission from the Greeks to the Persians and Arabs much was 'lost in translation'. Hence the emphasis moved away from the fundamental focus on the chart being night or day. Emphasis was still made on whether planets were above or below the horizon and sign placement. However, much of the basic philosophy underlying sect was lost so the idea obviously made less sense or was at least seen as a relatively minor consideration.

Unless her Saturn has evil aspects regardless of sect?

In the chart concerned Saturn was in a separating opposition to the Moon in Cancer in the 11th. Although the aspect was a few degrees past perfection I do think it was very significant with the life affirming Moon being opposed WS by Saturn which is inimical to life. The Moon in Cancer was very prominent in this person's primary motivation over her Sagittarian Sun. I attributed this to the fact due to the combination of the Moon's dignity, good house placement and its status as the sect light of the chart. Mark

In my sisters chart,Moon is applying to opposition to Saturn.It rules Cancer ASC, is at 23 Gemini in 12th house.Saturn is at 1 Capricorn

Mark wrote:Jorge wrote:

Suppose then one is born with Saturn in capricorn by day.Since Saturn is favorable by day,would that Saturn function like a Saturn in Aquarius? And the reverse for a night birth with Sat in Aquarius?

No and no. The signs dont swap meanings due to planetary sect. Capricorn is a cardinal, nocturnal, feminine, earthy, and animal sign. Aquarius is a fixed, masculine, diurnal, airy, and human. Aquarius is linked to the sanguine humour and Capricorn the melancholic. A planet out of sect works less effectively for the native. In a case of Saturn in Capricorn in a night chart it could still be negative because in this chart it is the malefic out of sect. We all have either Saturn (night births) or Mars (day births) working as the malefic out of sect. Even with essential dignity it can work against us. For example, I was looking at a woman's chart yesterday with Saturn in Capricorn in a night chart where Saturn was in the 5th house by Whole sign + Placidus. I will not go into too much detail but a major tragedy of her life was her inability to have children. She is now in her early 50's. Mark

In my day chart sun jupiter and saturn are not only in sect but above the horizon, Moon ,Venus and Mars are not only out of sect but above the horizon.
So the good are very good the bad very bad

Mark wrote:Jorge wrote:

Suppose then one is born with Saturn in capricorn by day.Since Saturn is favorable by day,would that Saturn function like a Saturn in Aquarius?
And the reverse for a night birth with Sat in Aquarius?

No and no. The signs dont swap meanings due to planetary sect. Capricorn is a cardinal, nocturnal, feminine, earthy, and animal sign. Aquarius is a fixed, masculine, diurnal, airy, and human. Aquarius is linked to the sanguine humour and Capricorn the melancholic.

A planet out of sect works less effectively for the native. In a case of Saturn in Capricorn in a night chart it could still be negative because in this chart it is the malefic out of sect. We all have either Saturn (night births) or Mars (day births) working as the malefic out of sect. Even with essential dignity it can work against us. For example, I was looking at a woman's chart yesterday with Saturn in Capricorn in a night chart where Saturn was in the 5th house by Whole sign + Placidus. I will not go into too much detail but a major tragedy of her life was her inability to have children. She is now in her early 50's.

Mark

Mark

Since there seems to be a Mars effect for Athlets(gauguelin) , I?ve been wondering whether those who have it out of sect will be different from those with it in sect.
Mike Tyson was a nasty guy so I would expect him to have an out of sect Mars.
His time of birth is not available,I wonder if anyone knows the full chart of some bad guy boxers or other sportsmen?

Kirk wrote:

Astrology has always had this uneasy blend of the factual and the imaginal.

Indeed. This sounds very reminiscent of Geoffrey Cornelius' ideas in his book 'The Moment of Astrology'. He used the terms of an astrology based on supposed 'causes' versus 'signs'.

Sounds like this discussion is migrating to the philosophy forum....

Mark