delete

Above all we should not forget that, if house 8 is the house of the horoscope of a certain native, all meanings of house eight are relating to this native. So house eight tells something of the death of this navitive, and only of this native's death. To learn something of other persons death we have to turn the chart, as Tom did above.

Thus house 12 being the 8th of the 5th, shows the death of the native's child or children. The father's death is shown in the 11th being the 8th of the 4th.

Johannes

Hello,

Clelia Romano:

I was wandering if the 7th gave its place as the death place to the 8th when the octopus kind of chart changed for a twelve fold places. But this is only a guess.

The octatopos (8 topical house system) and dodecatopos (12 topical house system):

The anonymous author of the Michigan Papyrus cites Asclepius as the source of the 8-topic system whereas Thrasyllus and Antiochus gave the credit to Nechepso. It is sort of accepted that the 12-topic system originated from Hermes.

However, Robert Schmidt argued that the original 8 topical house system is not the one explicated by Jim Tester in his book "History of Western Astrology" where the whole zodiac is divided into 4 and then later, into 8. Rather, the first eight signs of the zodiac beginning from the ascendant were assigned topics in the eight topic house system (where sign = house) and the rest were NOT NAMED. The 12 topic house system gave topics to all of the 12 signs beginning from ascendant. Even though there were diagrams that clearly depicted 8 division of the octatopos in Firmicus Maternus book "Mathesis", these diagrams are inserted by the translator (referring to the Jean Rhys Bram edition). Schmidt claims that the meanings of the twelfth house that we have now are the conflation of the original 12 house and 8 house topic.

On the topic of death: the 7th?
Some astrologers claim that those who follow the Greeks say that the eighth house represents death whereas those who follow the Egyptians say that the seventh governs death as this is the point of death for the Sun (the Sun is considered to die in the west when it sinks and reborn everyday when it rises in the east). In fact, we can see this "Egyptian" association of the seventh to death in part in Ptolemaic calculation of length of life (i.e. if a luminary is hyleg and it is in the quadrant between tenth and seventh, direction of the luminary to the seventh represents death of the native) - with addition and subtraction of the benefics and malefics...

It is also tempting to say that the seventh is opposite the first and if the first represents life, the seventh represents anti-life or death (but this is perhaps more modern than traditional)

On the topic of death: the 8th?
As mentioned above, it seems that the Greeks give death to the eighth house. The reason usually given is that it is the house that does not aspect the first but then, the 2nd, the 6th and the 12th are also not in aspect to the first. This is made clear (somewhat) by Porphyry [see Porphyry the Philosopher by James Holden, Chapter 52]:
The angles are the most important/powerful houses. According to Porphyry (and other astrologers as well), the first represents the early life, the tenth represents native?s prime time (midlife), the seventh represents his twilight years (the period that is close to his death but not death!) and the fourth represents his ?days? after death e.g. this is the house to look into for fame after death (but it could be also the house to look into for the native?s roots as it is a circle!).

The ?modern? and some medieval astrologers extrapolated this theory into a continuum which was NOT what Porphyry intended. Porphyry clearly mentions that the cadent of the angle always comes BEFORE the angles and the succedent of the angles always comes AFTER the angles. Example: The cadent of the first (which is the 12th house) represents before birth and the succedent of the first (which is the second) comes after. Hence, the first is the middle of the early period, the delivery itself, the 12th is before delivery and the 2nd is following delivery. This is why the ancients look into the 12th to see how the mother carries the native and the 2nd for the well-being of the native in terms of taking in nutrients from the mother?s milk.

So, the seventh is the period towards the very end of life and the cadent of the seventh (6th) which comes before the seventh represents sickness and the eighth becomes death itself as it follows the very end period of life (which has to be death!).

On the topic of death: the 4th?
There are a few references to the 4th being the house of death but I think that it is more of the house of burial or final place of rest i.e. graveyard (which has more connection to the 4th). It is interesting that almost all of the medieval astrologers give death to the first triplicity lord of the eighth and some Hellenistic/Persian astrologers give death to the first triplicity lord of the fourth but then the fourth and the eighth are trine to each other and hence, has the same first triplicity lord (if you use whole sign system).

So, it seems that the seventh and the eighth share strongly in the matters of death. It is interesting to note that in the hypothetical Thema Mundi (Chart of the World), Cancer rises and hence, the seventh (Capricorn) and the eighth houses (Aquarius) are ruled by Saturn which is a natural ruler of death! AND Saturn is the exalted lord of Libra which happens to be the fourth house in the Thema Mundi!

Since Astrojin opened the question to ?esoteric? fields, I?ll follow his thread. Sorry if I?ll repeat obvious things, but to reach the conclusion it will be necessary.
The meaning of houses in Hellenist astrology is mixed with the mysteries.
The terrestrial houses are 12 and that they have a meaning according to their aspects relative to the Ascendant.
The Eight topic houses system coexisted with the current 12 houses system during a period and I?ll not repeat Astrojin?s explanation.
The Greeks had two works for life:
?Zoo?: the physical existence and ?Bios?, the life you live, the livelihood.

And you live your life in Places that the Greeks named Topos or Houses (as we call them nowadays).

The ?horoskopo ? is the first house and represents ?Zoo?, the physical life. This life is supported by the activity of the Second House. So, the 2nd house?s issue is to maintain Zoo.

Now I?ll give an explanation of life developing through the houses in a different way. Some of these ideas came from Plato?s Timeus and Trasyllus?s tablet, describing what Hermes Trimegistus said.

According to this material the life we live is shared by the 12th, the 10th and the 8th houses.
This is really weird because what kind of life you can live in the 8th house, the place of death if your life is restricted to the body?
As for the 10th house, it is understandable that it has to do with life since it represents the prime, where we live our life in adulthood.
And the 12th house, a cadent house, ?apoclima?, what has it to do with life, if we are not alive yet, since it is prior to our body existence! How can we understand such a weird statement?
I?ll try to bring some explanations.

The 12th house has a meaning of preparation: at the same time it is apoclima, a decline, a turn backwards from the first. It was said to be the house where you choose your Bios, where you?re not living your life, but choosing the one that you?ll have to live.

(Hellenistic astrology was not reincarnationist but used a lot of Plato?s theory, and Plato believed in reincarnation.)

According to this theory, after the 12th it happens the birth of the body, the First House. As soon as we live the three houses after the 12th and complete the Second House, which supports the First House, we find the abyss of the Third House. The cadent houses, are named between worlds: they work like an initiation and a destruction of the houses before them. So, reaching the end of the 2nd house we have to jump over it. At this moment we do not go ahead entering into the Third House, but instead into the 9th house. t is a death of our childhood: the 9th is the 8th of the Third.

The first return of Saturn occurs at this time and it means the end of youth, the moment that we reach adulthood. This event occurs at about thirty years of age: we reach our maturity.

In the 9th, a cadent house, we prepare for our prime; we get subsidies, guides and learning to achieve the acts which we will live when we reach the 10th house, the Praxis. We get prepared to act in the public life, to beget children( matter of the 10th house in Hellenist astrology) etc.

The 11th house is the patronage that support our public life and position.

Additional 30 years are spent in the 9th, 10th and 11th houses. It is the period between the 30 and 60 years of age.

Once you lived the 11th house it is time to your second initiation: you?ll have to jump to the 6th House, the illnesses of the body, which will prepare you for death, which will happen in the 7th House.
Indeed, the setting place makes opposition to the Ascendant.

The next thirty years of life will revolve around this new theme: the destruction of life.

Back to our initial theme: what kind of activity can we have in the 8th house, also called ?lethargy? and when our body is supposed to be dead?
The answer is that in this house we have to drink the water of forgetfulness, in order to forget the life we lived and our Bios. This is the activity of the 8th: being dead and to forget.

So, the 12th House is a preparation to the Bios. We get a Zoo, a body, and we begin to live our life going straight to the end of the Second House, where our first thirty years of life are spent.
After this rite of passage that occurs not by coincidence certainly at the same time of the first Saturn?s return there is a jump from youth to adulthood, where we will live the next thirty years of our life, our prime and adulthood ( living the good houses, the 9th, 10th and
11th). Next, we have the second Saturn?s return, another jump, this time to a worse place, the illnesses of the 6th House which will prepare us for death.

Let?s suppose someone lived more than 90 years. This person would jump to the 8th from the 8th house to the 3rd house (a between worlds house), cadent, preparing for the 4th, the Hades. The 4th house is Nemesis? house, the reward, the justice, the place where the soul will be weighed. The Fourth House has its own Lot, the Lot of Nemesis or Justice, based on the relationship between the Lot of Fortune and Saturn.
Nemesis becomes a contributing cause of fate coming from underground sources.

In the underworld house the soul will be weighed and evaluated until it reaches the 5th house and again will jump to the 12th, where a new beginning will be prepared.

In the 12th House, after the soul passes by the place of Necessity it is ready to live another life and a new Bios. Hermes said that the Bios was supported by the second house and by the Praxis, i.e. the 10th House, but besides this, for the Third House that is a place of travel and dreams.
In Hellenistic texts, action is Praxis, and Praxis is matter of the 10th house, but also of the Third, because Praxis does means also to transverse spaces and to travel, matters of the Third: in this case the travel to Hades.
The Third House, a between worlds house, in the Thema Mundi is represented by the double sign of Virgo , disposed by Mercury, who is Psycho pomp.

What does the soul have to do in the Third house? It?s suppose to travel to the underworld, to the Hades.

After the 4th house experience the soul enters in the 5th house, the fame after death, as Astrojin mentioned.

Siblings are matter of the Third, but the ruler of the Third, Mercury, is the same ruler of the 12th in the Thema Mundi , what means that brothers and sisters are those who came for the same purposes and with the same agenda. we do have brothers who came from the same symbolical womb, as well.

All this kind of thought may sound weird for our mind but it is a way to approach the question of the 7th/8th houses as houses of death in its beginning.

We notice that the places went clockwise and counterclockwise, and the use of derivative houses was a rule. Besides this, each house could be used as the ?horoskopus? for the matter it represented.

So, if the Fourth House has to do with the Hades, the place where the soul is weighed, it has to do with both parents as well, and the First House is the 10th of the Fourth: we are the result of our parent?s action. A house has many meanings, as we can see.

In the Thema Mundi, the Fourth House, Libra, has to do with Nemesis and
Saturn exalts there.
The 5th house is the posthumous fame, good or bad, and what will happen to our body or ashes after death. At the same time, the 5th house has to do with the legacy from the parents. etc, etc, etc