Skyscript Astrology Forum

I might share that it is has often confused me that my natal Mercury on Spica in the 12th, has no problems manifesting itself - when I am teaching (astrology or feng shui) or reading charts; in more private context, I tend to be more seclusive and often get complaints that I don't "share". Reading this thread and Tom's remark on the effect of triplicities (or not), I might deduct that Mercury's square from the 12th to its shared triplicity-ruler Jupiter in Cancer-9, does the trick, but only/mostly if the context of the 9th is met...

I'm not sure what to do here. I know I'm further directing the discussion away from the 8th house itself, but in this example of leading a planet out of one of the 'bad' houses ? 6, 8, 12 ? I don't' think the Mercury-Jupiter configuration was treated correctly.

Since Herman publicly gave his chart data and ASC degree I don't think it's too boldly revealing of me to say that yes, a chart with Scorpio rising, Mars in Saturn-ruled Capricorn ? with Saturn in Scorpio conjunct the ASC ? will indeed indicate someone who's highly likely to be private and reticent when it comes to personal matters and feelings. With a Virgo Moon, no less.

But in the activities of teaching and reading charts the focus is not on one's own feelings and life. We don't usually 'share' when doing them. A person can be highly private regarding personal matters and still be very active and prominent socially. These are different areas of life. So . . .

Why the focus on Mercury? Mercury isn't much of a personal significator in this chart. In delineation the 1st house and the ASC ruler take us miles in describing the person and how he or she thinks, acts and expresses himself or herself. Here we have Mars, as ASC ruler, exalted in cardinal Capricorn, sextile the ASC degree and sextile the 1st house Venus. There's plenty to show that this private person can still get out there and make plenty of contacts. These days I'm cautiously exploring the Moon's nodes. That ASC-ruling Mars is conjunct the North Node. A sign of increase in the activities and strength of Mars? The chart has an 11th house Sun in Cardinal Libra, a Sun rising to culmination, an active Sun. I don't see the concern over that 12th house Mercury as an indicator that the person doesn't "share". Those who might complain about that are responding to Saturn, Scorpio and Capricorn. And Venus, the one who simply adores sharing, is in ever-watchful Scorpio and located in the 1st house. In this chart Mercury isn't much of a player in those personal matters.

The way I see it, whether or not Mercury has trouble expressing itself would mostly be a matter concerning the Mercury-ruled houses rather than how the chart native himself speaks and acts. And Mercury does get plenty of help. It's aspecting diurnal Jupiter which is diurnally placed above the horizon in a diurnal chart, a Jupiter that is oriental of the Sun, a Jupiter in exaltation. This Jupiter has a lot to offer in a 9th house context. I don't see the triplicity consideration having a particularly important effect upon the Mercury-Jupiter configuration. Isn't the triplicity consideration alone a fairly minor consideration? But it might be something for me to keep in mind. Thank you for your example.

Thank you for that exquisite read, Kirk (even when I didn't ask for it, lol).
You made me think hard about this configuration.

Kirk wrote:
I'm not sure what to do here. I know I'm further directing the discussion away from the 8th house itself, but in this example of leading a planet out of one of the 'bad' houses ? 6, 8, 12 ? I don't' think the Mercury-Jupiter configuration was treated correctly.

Since Herman publicly gave his chart data and ASC degree I don't think it's too boldly revealing of me to say that yes, a chart with Scorpio rising, Mars in Saturn-ruled Capricorn ? with Saturn in Scorpio conjunct the ASC ? will indeed indicate someone who's highly likely to be private and reticent when it comes to personal matters and feelings. With a Virgo Moon, no less.

(snip)

The way I see it, whether or not Mercury has trouble expressing itself would mostly be a matter concerning the Mercury-ruled houses rather than how the chart native himself speaks and acts. And Mercury does get plenty of help. It's aspecting diurnal Jupiter which is diurnally placed above the horizon in a diurnal chart, a Jupiter that is oriental of the Sun, a Jupiter in exaltation. This Jupiter has a lot to offer in a 9th house context. I don't see the triplicity consideration having a particularly important effect upon the Mercury-Jupiter configuration. Isn't the triplicity consideration alone a fairly minor consideration? But it might be something for me to keep in mind. Thank you for your example.

You 're welcome. After thinking more I 'd like to add the following: Mercury rules 11th and 8th houses in my chart. Cannot really link the 11th of friends, except that oftentimes friendship results from exchange about matters of higher knowledge and healing techniques (ref. Jupiter 9th). But Mercury as significator of my fears and anxieties (which of course would also be signified by the Scorpio-clot) very well fits the workings of escaping through this Jupiter as triplicity ruler.
I 've had some rough decades in the past, when in a therapeutic context, especially a one-on-one one, I would hardly breath a word, I 'd just get locked up (have been known to not speak 1 word for more than a week, when upset, lol). But I discovered I could "vent" when reading a chart for a client, or even better, when teaching, using my own "darkness" as an example of how things could be astrologically defined or traced in time. And I discovered that the more I could "share" this way, the lighter things would become.
So maybe this *has* a bit more relevance to the Mercurial escape from 12!

Herman

Hi Herman,

I was hoping I hadn't annoyed you by digging into your chart. I did enjoy working with it and learned from it.

But Mercury as significator of my fears and anxieties (which of course would also be signified by the Scorpio-clot) very well fits the workings of escaping through this Jupiter as triplicity ruler.

This brings me back to our topic, the 8th house. I have agreed with the 8th signifying fears, but I'm not at all sure how to work with it. I always have felt the vagueness of it, of talking about fears, but this case has really pointed out the confusion of it.

Your statement "Mercury as significator of my fears and anxieties" doesn't sound quite right. Yes, Mercury rules the 8th but to call it the significator of fears and anxieites doesn't sound right with Saturn, Mr. Fear, sitting on the ASC in Scorpio. And might not fears be also very much connected with the Moon?

The Moon and Saturn are present in every chart, so I just can't get myself to look at the 8th house of a chart and say that 'The fears' are found here and are signified by whatever planet happens to rule that house. That leaves me not knowing what to do with fears in the 8th house. We can have fears about 7th house intimacy, 2nd house money or of being in public places (whatever house that may be). So what are 8th house fears?

Kirk wrote: It's easy to go too far with considerations of the number of planets in a house. Since this is the Traditional forum it's appropriate to say that the traditional approach is not to add up planets but to see what the planets are doing in the chart. It depends on what roles the planets are playing in that chart. Having the ASC ruler as the sole 8th house planet puts much focus on the 8th for that chart and person. Likewise, if there are 3 planets in the 8th and they are relatively secondary regarding the chart native himself or herself - for example, not ruling the ASC - then that doesn't necessarily give the 8th any sort of dramatic prominence. Traditional astrology focuses on finding the most prominent planets and determining in what areas of life a planet is most active. Counting up the planets in a sign or house is very modern, as is counting up aspects.

I would add also that there is traditional approach to look at native's life base on triplicity rulers of ASC and main luminary.
For instance with air sign ASC earlier years ruled by Saturn, middle age by Mercury and later years by Jupiter (in diurnal chart).
Thus in my chart the middle years ruled by Mercury, and Mercury found in 8th house while ruling 9th.
And my middle years marked with emigration and all kind of additional tension.

AstroNovice wrote: ) So I am curious if there are other, less obvious ways that the 8th house may manifest. I am already familiar with modern astrology's take on the 8th house, but I disregard that for the most part because I dislike modern astrology and its tendency to sugar coat everything.

Based on the above you are yet to experience young mothers screaming, shaking and frothing at the mouth in a Liz Greene lecture when they are suddenly awakened to the fact the child minder with Moon, Saturn and Chiron in the 8th is at home spit roasting the baby and making a salad dressing with the cats entrails. So there may be ''less obvious'' ways out there.

Are they traditional good question? Looking at Deb Houlding's book I would say pretty much. However, rather that seeing planets here as 'casting down into the underworld' we are seeing them navigating the more primal areas of the human mind/life.

In this schema it is very much a zone of fears, vulnerabilities and where we are at our most defensive, particularly with the 'lover'.

One way I think about planets here is the soldier in a trench in the First World War peeking over the top and seeing all these people wanting to kill him whilst his buddies lie next to him in agony breathing their last. I.E. the person seems to be born with this awareness of death and how they are never far from it.

Sorry I havent checked back on this thread in a while, I have been busy and also I had thought this thread had already died lol. (No pun intended) There is a lot of great information in this thread, I would have to say that a lot of it rings true. I suppose in that case...perhaps when encountering a planet(s) in the 8th house it would be prudent to include awareness of the dark side of life, especially as it regards death. Although I'm still not sure if this awareness of death would entail a general interest in death? Or if it would only mean an interest in our own death?

Also:

"However, rather that seeing planets here as 'casting down into the underworld' we are seeing them navigating the more primal areas of the human mind/life."

I wonder if this is something that can also be interpreted in a more literal sense, in the sense that planets casting down into the "underworld" could represent some sort of affinity with the underworld in a social sense. Organized crime? Or just some sort of connection with the seedier elements of society? However the one issue that I have with trying to expand possible definitions of the 8th house is that I fear accidently confounding traditional delineations of the 8th house with (ugh) modern delineations. Sort of the same way that moderns like to extrapolate the meaning of the 2nd house from mere physical possessions to our values/value system as well. It is exactly that sort of thing that I want to avoid doing with the 8th house.

In any case, with regards to my own personal experience with the 8th house, while I am not really concerned with a natural, inevitable death that everyone will probably experience, I have always been deeply worried by the possibility of a premature, or unexpected death. Asides from that, I have always had an interest in the occult, with regards to the spirit world, astral plane, magic, and stuff like that, however...like I said before, I really really really want to avoid treading into modern territory, because things like the above delineations seem to be a very modern interpretation of the 8th house.

Additionally, I am curious about whether or not a busy 8th house would indicate not only an awareness of death, but also death itself, with the two being mutually intertwined, or if it would be possible that the two meanings could exist separately. I guess in other words, I'm basically asking if whether or not a person with a busy 8th house would be (constantly?) concerned about death and then actually have those fears materialize, or if one could spend one's entire life worrying about death, only to end up dying peacefully at an old age. Of course I know that the type of planets present in the 8th house would influence the outcome, however for me personally I kind of have a hunch that maybe we could also look to the planets in the 8th houses essential dignity, and then also we could look at its dispositor for the ultimate outcome. (Is this an acceptable technique in natal chart delineation?) I.E. Lets say someone has a rough stellium in taurus in the 8th house, lets say the stellium consisted of mars and saturn and the sun. Assuming that the stellium is peregrine, or mostly lacks dignity, then I would interpret this as the fears of death or what not would seem VERY real, and very imminent. However if we assume that the dispositor of the stellium (venus) was in taurus or libra then would it be acceptable to assume that in spite of immense anxieties and worries things would ultimately end up turning out alright. I know that this is an overly simplistic understanding of the whole matter, but thats why I'm putting this out here, so maybe you guys can confirm or deny this, seeing as how my understanding of dignity and dispositorship is relatively meager in that regards. (concerning the essential dignity, or lack thereof of a planet, and how the essential dignity of its dispositor affects the manifestation of the initial planet.)

AstroNovice wrote:
Sort of the same way that moderns like to extrapolate the meaning of the 2nd house from mere physical possessions to our values/value system as well. It is exactly that sort of thing that I want to avoid doing with the 8th house.

Ah, but perhaps you can learn more about a person?s values by wandering around their house looking at their ''possessions'' than listening to 50 sessions of their therapy sessions.

I guess in other words, I'm basically asking if whether or not a person with a busy 8th house would be (constantly?) concerned about death and then actually have those fears materialize, or if one could spend one's entire life worrying about death, only to end up dying peacefully at an old age. Of course I know that the type of planets present in the 8th house would influence the outcome, however for me personally I kind of have a hunch that maybe we could also look to the planets in the 8th houses essential dignity, and then also we could look at its dispositor for the ultimate outcome. (Is this an acceptable technique in natal chart delineation?)

What sometimes happens to time the death is look at solar or lunar return or what the ruler is doing. I?m yet to find someone who would put any dollars on getting the death from a bunch of 10 charts. So pinch of salt perhaps. You also have the issue of time twins not dying in the same month, year, or even decade. So the notion you can predict death would appear to be absurd. Have you read about the Oktotopos : http://cura.free.fr/docum/02fagan.html .


I don't know about astral planes, spirit worlds and so forth. My rule of thumb is to tell the peson to bury their head in the soil for the day and then committ to burning the silly books they brought at the 'occult' bookstore in their late teens. This may be a bit of an overly 'modern' take on these phenomenas for here ? Neo-Traditional astrologers tend to be more open to the supernatural. Check out Ben Dykes lectures for an insight into this bent.

AstroNovice wrote:...Sort of the same way that moderns like to extrapolate the meaning of the 2nd house from mere physical possessions to our values/value system as well. It is exactly that sort of thing that I want to avoid doing with the 8th house.

Actually 2nd house has another meaning as death of other people (8th from 7th) and often 2nd house emphasized in serial killers charts in connection with 12th or mercenaries in connection with 10th

AstroNovice you asked for anecdotal 8th house experiences.

I have Venus in Cancer in the quadrant 8th/ whole sign 9th ( conjoining Uranus) and the antiscia of both these planets are in Gemini firmly in the whole sign 8th. Venus only has dignity of triplicity although she is squared by Saturn.

In 2000 I had a Solar Return chart (of which I was unaware at the time) with a stellium in Taurus in the whole sign 8th consisting of Venus, Jupiter, Saturn, Sun and Mercury conjoining Algol. Mars was just inside the 9th and the Moon was in the 12th. The Solar Return asc. was my natal 12th house - lovely !

That year I had a medical accident with an overdose of steroids prescribed for my Colitis/Crohn's. I suffered about six months of constant severe anxiety attacks which were so terrible I was convinced I was dying and indeed I wanted to die to escape the hell I was going through. Truly the ancients' perception of the 8th as the Gates of Hell !

The very worst year of my life and in fact part of me did actually die: I will never be the same. My spiritual beliefs collapsed completely and although I have re built them to some extent, my beliefs are now firmly in the Gnostic camp!

So my personal experience of the 8th is one of literal extreme fear although I wasn't frightened of death, just the fear itself and the insupportable pain in my head which accompanied it.

On a slightly more hopeful note I have been reading Morin and his views that a malefic in a good celestial state in a bad house can mitigate the evil of the house,although not take it away altogether. It would seem that there would still be an 8th house "accident" but not as severe as it could be.
With my admittedly limited experience I concur with this view, although as yet, only with the 12th house. I have yet to see how my nephew's 8th house Saturn in Aquarius will work out. I take some heart from Morin !

In Book 18 of the "Astrologia Gallica" Morin refers to the chart of a nobleman known as Joan de Giam D. De Rispe whom he describes as being unlucky in war and ending his days by dying miserably in combat from a wound to the head caused by a flaming projectile that killed him instantly. The manner of death is shown by a partile square to the asc. from Mars conjoin Algol but Morin describes him as dying like this "despite" having Jupiter in Pisces in the 8th.

Morin with the use of the word "despite" manages to contradict what he said in Book 21 about a benefic in a good celestial state in a bad house mitigating the evil of that house.
I pondered several days over this one and tried to find some information about this nobleman,but to no avail.
Eventually I had what I felt was a "light bulb" moment when I thought about this man being a soldier and what qualities must be required to be a courageous warrior. I decided that his dignified Jupiter would have given him the courage and the bravery to face death without fear. Yes obviously he died but I would have liked to have found out what age he was. Perhaps he survived many battles and faced the possibility of death on many occasions, even if he lost all his battles as Morin suggests! Of course it could be said that although he suffered a violent death, at least it was instant. Maybe that in itself was mitigation from Jupiter!

Morin with the use of the word "despite" manages to contradict what he said in Book 21 about a benefic in a good celestial state in a bad house mitigating the evil of that house.

I pondered several days over this one and tried to find some information about this nobleman,but to no avail.

I'll have to look at the chart in question, but one way to look at this is that the benefic obviously, cannot mitigate death forever. One might argue that Morin 's aphorism, if valid, should have at least mitigated the violent death, but again for a soldier that would be difficult to do indefinitely. Surely could not make him immune to death in battle. On the other hand, Morin wouldn't be the first astrologer to contradict himself.