Skyscript Astrology Forum

Posted: **Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:11 am**

Ile, may I PM instead?

Posted: **Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:47 am**

StellarTiggy wrote:Ile, may I PM instead?

Of course.

Posted: **Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:36 am**

Ile wrote:Hi, sorry for the slow reply, I'm quite busy these days.

I will try to give few more examples, but if one really wants to learn the method, reading Valens is the first thing to do. These texts should be studied with great attention and discipline.

Damon, you asked about the situation of the Portuguese comedian and TV star Herman Jose. I don't know much about him and astrodata bank only says that he made his brake in his 22nd year of life.
I notice also that the chart has accuracy of A - from memory.

Here is his chart calculated in the latest version of Delphic Oracle, which is the main software I use for Hellenistic Astrology investigations.

Now, I feel the need to clear some things up first and this will be good exercise for me to put all of my notes and thoughts in order (regarding the matter).

It is very needful to say something about the concept of Chrematisticos, that is Profitable (advantageous) places, places conducive to business.
???????????? (Chrematistiki)is a Greek word which means something like Profit, Advantage.
Early Greek authors dedicate a great deal on separating the Chrematistikos places from the Achrematistikos (non profitable).
Generally, there exist two main divisions, the one that follows an astrologer by name Timaeus, and another one which follows the King Nechepso. According to this Timaeus, profitable places are all places that aspcets the ascendant (including the ascendant): the four angles (1, 10, 7, 4), 5th and elevents, 9th and excluding the 3rd, which is the only place of these which does regards the ascendant. Dorotheus seems to follow this system.
According to King Nechepso's approach, all places but cadent are Chrematistikos.

I argued on my blog that in my opinion Valens follows the King Nechepso's approach, and this can be easily seen in his explanations of Aphetic points where he very cryptically excludes the 9th as an Apheta.
I can't conclude for sure that Valens really used only the King Nechepso's approach, but I suspect. Another thing which goes into account of the above argument is that through out the book Valens has great prises for the King, but has not so beautiful words for Timaeus.
However, these are my speculations, I don't advocate anything for sure.

So, the 6th and 12th are Achrematistikos in both systems and there is no doubt that these are bad places, cadent and with bad meanings.
Now, being Achrematistikos shows that the planet is not able to produce its significations with great measure, or to bring forth profit, to give "riches" if you like.

But Serapio also tells us that there are further significations which we need to look if we want to delienate planet's strength. Here he uses the word ????????? (Ischuontes), which means to be strong, powerful, able.
These are (among others):
- being in important place (Chrematistikos?)
- making a phasis or appearance.
- Being with a Lot!

Now, of which Lot Serapio speaks?
Can we take the Fortune, Spirit, Exaltation and Basis to this consideration?
I think we can that's for sure! They are all produced, or calculated with the most important factors in the chart: Sun, Moon, Ascendant and Fortune and Spirit, and this why Valens speaks that if the ruler of some lot is with the other lot, this is good (no matter where it falls in regard to the horizon, i.e. which place)!

So, a planet being with some of this Lots will have strength and will bring forth its significations with better health and power.

The word ????????? (ischuontes), was used in the times of the writings of the New Testament to denote "Health", "Strength". In Matthew 9:12 Jesus said:
??????? ?? ????????? ?????? ???? (Hehusin oi ischountes iatru halla). The three English translations says on this:
NAS: [It is] not those who are healthy who need...
KJV: unto them, They that be whole need not..
INT: have they who are strong of a physician, but-rather..

So, being with a lot brings Health, Strength to the planet. It makes it to be "whole" even in bad circumstances.

Back to the chart of Herman Jose.
Moon is Light of the Time and it is in the 1st sign! This is good, even though she falls in non-operative degrees, that is, in 12th division. First sign is very powerful and without doubt most potent place, so I think we can't neglect this!

Her triplicity lords are: Mercury/Saturn/Jupiter, in that order.
Mercury is Achrematisticos, so this will show us poor beginnings of his life.
I don't have much information on his life. This is what I got from imbd:

His career had an humble star in the 70s, when he performed as singer and co-hosted a few varieties shows (Zip-Zip). His first big success as a comedian was with "O Tal Canal" where he performed several characters from a fictitious TV channel.
I can't find information on his childhood though.

Saturn is retrograde in mediocre zodiac position and in 2bd sign but first division. Not so strong Saturn. It regards the Mid-heaven by trigon though and it is with the Basis!

Third trigon Lord is Jupiter, succedent by division but cadent by sign position, and in poor zodiacal shape.

So, probably this is one of those nativities of which Valens advises as to look at the lots!

"If the houserulers and their helpers are unfavorably situated, it will be necessary to examine the Lot of Fortune and its houseruler. If they are found to be at an angle, or just following an angle, with the benefics in aspect, then the native will have some good fortune and rank. He will be subject to vicissitudes and reversals on occasion, but he will not be totally at loss". (Riley's translation p.26).

Isn't this true for his life?
On December 29, 2003, Herman Jos? was accused of various child sexual abuse offences connected with the Casa Pia scandal.[3] In May 2003 he was summoned to appear before the Criminal Court, accused of abusing an adolescent. However, he was able to prove that he was working for the SIC television channel in Brazil at the time. The judge, Ana Teixeira e Silva, dismissed the case.

His Fortune and Spirit are at an angle, with Mars in cadent sign but succedent by divisions, and having Benefics in aspect: Jupiter aspects Mars and Venus is with the Lots! This Venus is also ruler of the Exaltation With the Lots, so the nativity has some protection and helping hand from the Fortuna in the bad occasions in his life brought by the malefic rulers in bad positions.

From what I'm seeing here, I would say that this man is not as powerful as president or some influentel political figure like the oens we examine above, but it has some level of eminence because of the Angular Light, angular Spirit and Fortune, and their ruler receiving aspectfrom benefic.

Now, at this point Valens doesn't seem to look at the zodiacal shape of the aspecting planets who testifies, like Jupiter in Gemini and Venus in Aries. They are surely in poor zodiacal shape, but this means that they will stop to do benefits? I don't think so, I think they will bestow their goods, but not in great measure as they would if they were in good zodiacal placement. After all, the nativity is not Michael Jackson, and I heard about him for the first time. So, he has "some good fortune" as Valens testifies, but this is not very, very powerful nativity in this regard.
To mention also that Venus is in her own term, so in her own chariot.

One thing which should be noted about Saturn is that he is ruler of the 11th place from Fortune and this is the palce of Acquisitions and Accomplishments. And his placement with the Basis is also good thing!
But still, he is out of sect and in poor zodiacal shape, so I will look at him like a tricky planet which can brings forth negative significations through its intrinsic nature to do harm, especially in the Livelihood (2nd). And the life of Herman was not a fairy tale, that's for sure.

So, all in all.
I would say that the person will be well known and famous, mainly because of the presence of the Moon in 1st in masculine sign (the testimonies of Ptolemy and Hephaistio [and note, in her own decan!]), he will gain some good fortune and rank because of the angularity of Fortune and Spirit with the Exaltation Lord - Venus in her own Chariot. This will happen most probably through the help of women! But this fortune and rank will be challenged and the person will be subject to vicissitudes because of the poorly situated rulers, especially when the malefic will rule the times.

------
Stellar Tiggy, Light in poor zodiacal shape, but first trigon ruler in excellent shape, will probably bring forth good significations in its own time. The whole context of the chart should be seen in order to make the prognostication. All depends of the context.
If you have particular example in mind, you may post it so we can discuss on it.

Regards,
Ile

Hi Ile
I will also PM you or in your blog cause i am reading the Anthologies.
But that was my point,this guy has never been poor,he comes from a wealthy family and inherit their big estate. It is natural he didnt have a huge success in the beginning, but moneywise he has always done well. I met him when I was living there years ago.
He had problems at age 16 with the secret police because he had a German passport and they told himhe had to choose,Germany or Portugal.That was in days of the dictatorship. So he moved abroad for a while

Posted: **Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:53 pm**

Hi
Ile
From Valens, it seems Hermans early wealth comes of having Fortune in an angle

Posted: **Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:29 pm**

Good evening,

First and foremost thanks to Mr Ile for his patient, thorough, illustrated explanations of his understanding of methods of the Hellenistic astrologer Vettius Valens to determine eminence of the native. Hopefully in the near future some complete, competently commented translation(s) of Anthologies will be published, Mr Riley's draft being, in my humble experience, quite difficult to use.

As usual there are several variants of these techniques amongst Hellenistic authors, beginning of course with the determination of the Epikratetor. As the methods of several authors, both Hellenistic and Mediaeval, are programmed in and displayed separately on screen with tables and access to the original ancient Greek or Latin texts, i have found the astrology software Placidus/Porphyrius Magus especially useful in this area.

Assuming one has determined the Epikratetor (if there be one), the so-called 'nautical metaphor' has been useful for me to get an overview of the chart. The owner of the ship (Epikratetor) can also be the Captain if identical to the first element ruler of the sign the owner is posited in. The two officers are the remaining triplicity rulers (assuming Dorothean triplicities). Then we have the Helmsman, usually the domicile ruler of the ascending sign. The astrology software Delphic Oracle mentioned by Mr Ike has a nice module for the nautical metaphor. If, for example, the Helmsman is in unmitigated aversion to the ascending sign, he will scarcely function well. From another thread some readers may know that i include the 3rd house (of the Goddess) amongst the non-averse useful ones. To me, the angular-succedant-cadent scheme of places attributed to King Nechepso more indicates intensity of activity. These analyses help to understand the dramatis personae and their specific roles in the drama of the particular chart. Obviously, the Horoskopos (Ascendant) represents the subject of the chart, ex. gr. the native, like the passenger who may experience a more or less pleasant voyage of life.

To ascertain eminence one evaluates the essential and accidental states of the three (or two depending on the author) relevant element rulers much as Mr Ike has explained, again with differences by author. If, for example, all are in cadent places, there is little likelihood of eminence. One does well to include the strong 'heliacal and culminating zones' clockwise just after the angles. Some clients might not like to have their egos deflated by being told it is unlikely they will become for example Chairperson of a Board of Directors of a large corporation but in my humble experience they are nevertheless best served by courteous, frank information.

Best regards,

lihin

Posted: **Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:09 pm**

Here?s an article by A. Garth:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6956746/Five- ... -Astrology

Trojan

Posted: **Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:43 pm**

Maybe I am too software dependent, but I dont understand how Valens calculates Cronocartorships.
Still the method he uses in Chapter 5,to divide age by 12 and use the remainder for yearly predictions,is quite interesting

Posted: **Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:47 pm**

horarcek wrote:Here?s an article by A. Garth:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6956746/Five- ... -Astrology

Trojan

Great stuff Horarcek
Thanks

Posted: **Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:03 pm**

Antoine Garth is great astrologer and singer too.
He is the one who got me interested into Vettius Valens, kindly looking into my chart and delineating it through his approach offered in the book posted above.

I haven't talked with him for a while, I don't know how his astrological studies and research are going on. I know he was more concentrated on his musical engagements last time I had a chat with him.

Posted: **Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:13 pm**

Ile wrote:Antoine Garth is great astrologer and singer too. He is the one who got me interested into Vettius Valens, kindly looking into my chart and delineating it through his approach offered in the book posted above. I haven't talked with him for a while, I don't know how his astrological studies and research are going on. I know he was more concentrated on his musical engagements last time I had a chat with him.

4
Hi Ile
See below.
For a day born Capricorn shouldnt the second triplicity ruler be the Moon and not Mars as Debs link shows?
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/triplicities.html .

It seems Garth made MLKings chart fit his death,or did I miss something? MARTIN LUTHER KINGHas Taurus rising.We?re going to do ourthird technique. We?regoing to look for thethree triplicityrulers. The Sun is inCapricorn, it?sdaytime, and it?searth. These nocturnaltriplicities just standwith us. Starting withVenus by day and Marsby night. Venus is inthe 11th, she?s exaltedthe first 28 years ofthis person?s life.Mercury and Venus bothhave a lot ofconnectivity withintellect. I would saythis is a dreamy, highbrow and have veryinteresting tastes, very refined. A refined sensibility cultivated. Venus is with the Moon,Venus is the ruler of the Ascendant. Pisces is connected with that is devotional. Pisces isintensely sensual. I would say these tendencies were able to grow. The planet is exalted and inEleventh House with the good Spirit, so there?s obviously patronage coming from all kinds ofpeople, including women.This chart is partial to women and has a weakness for women. A weakness for Venus-orientedthings, like lying down in a nice bed and getting good and sweaty. The Moon is with it as well.Venus is on the Spirit too, so that says a little something to us. This development ofSpirituality, development of this rarified sense of love. This kind of Venus and Pisces is thathigher love. A love that transcends the personal and that eradicates boundaries.Venus sorts of events are a signature of these 28 years, and also with the patronage they wouldhave from people above them as well. There would be a very strong coming up, and possibly a verystrong Spiritual coming up, at least a strong sense of a feeling of love. A feeling of thistranscendent love, of wanting to express and know and understand this transcended love.The second triplicity ruler is Mars. Mars brings us to that second period of life. This is theperiod in which Martin Luther King made most of his accomplishments and tragically, also died.He was killed in 1968 at the age of 39. Mars gives us a taste of how much more dangerous thesituation is. Mars is the ruler of the 12th, so there?s the bad Spirit getting in our way. Marshas a tendency to thrive on opposition. And when he?s ruling the 12th ? this is a Taurus risingchart, like Mae West.It is the opposition that is going to show itself in the face of other people, the Civil Rightsmarches would see to that. And as also opposing Saturn. We can say that during this period thereare conflicts. Also, this is a rising up from under in this second 28-year period. This chartwould determine that the native would bring up things from underneath (the unconscious?)experiencing a lot of frustration, obstacles and ?boots on the ground? hard work because theMars opposes the Saturn: demonstrable anger and frustration, and quite possibly, danger. Mars/Saturn opposition is never of itself ?good,? it?s ***columbine. He did not get to the thirdperiod of life. The second triplicity ruler covers the next 28 years of life. This would be the important time ?he lived to age 56. This era includes the mantle of chancellor and then later, ?Der Furer.? Moonis our second traplicity ruler and this leads to one of the rules: Whenever the ruler of thePart of Fortune is with Jupiter, it gives a big fortune ? it expands that person?s fortune. Moonis with Jupiter and she is also the ruler of the Part of Fortune. Whenever the ruler of the Lotof Fortune is on one of our traplicity rulers, that?s going to bring that person?s fate to thefore.The lot of the Ascendant or the lot of the Part of Fortune is also an Ascendant. So that planetthat owns the Lot of Fortune has the same power as the ruler of the Ascendant.What that life narrative suggests is that is the time of its fulfilment? usually. So, eitherruler of the Lot of Fortune , or ruler of the Ascendant. Here we?ve come to the ruler of the Lotof Fortune , in the Fourth house, things that go up and go down. Because the Moon and Jupiterare together in Capricorn, Fortune may go up, but it?s not going to mean that this person willshow themselves in the best light, or show the best of themselves.?Jupiter is further corrupted "

But thats not all. For Hitler Mars becomes the second trplicity ruler. A day earth chart like MLK`s. Interesting his lack of integrity

by Capricorn (in a sign of detriment or weakness), where the Moonalso is corrupted by being in Capricorn.Jupiter?s beneficence is corrupted first by being fallen, and the Moon, her fecundity iscorrupted by being in Capricorn. The moon represents emotions and Jupiter represents compassionand beneficence, so it looks like this person?s life might go quite high, but it appears theymight be also weakened by the emotions and less than compassionate in this life. The Moon andJupiter together should be essence of that. If the Moon represents the tit of milk, with Jupiterthat tit is really full, overflowing, gigantic. Also we can confirm that by looking at Saturn?slocation in Leo. He?s in the 11th which is a fantastic position to be in, and that means he?sgot help along the way. But Saturn is in Leo, a choleric sign, so even with the planets inCapricorn in his detriment, we?ve got a lot of choleric temperament in this chart that can makeit very unpleasant. If this person attains to the heights, they will have good opportunity todisplay great unpleasantness. Since also it?s in the Fourth, it?s probably something that goesup.The moon, which is in the Lot of Fortune , is know to be interchangeable, I would say it?ssomething maybe that goes up and then goes down ? a tropical or moveable sign of Capricorn.Sudden changes for the good and then changes back down within that 28 year period.Hitler had just started the Third triplicity, and there?s the most violent planet in the houseof death. I would pretty much say that person is going to die early within that last third oflife as he?s all of a sudden with the ruler which is in the house of death.That?s a first example of how to work with this technique. The first thing that I did, I lookedto see whether it was daytime or nighttime ? it?s a daytime chart, so I looked to see what signit was in, and what element that sign was, and then I used the triplicity rulers of that sign to

Posted: **Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:00 am**

In describing the triplicity rulership on p.17-18, he explains them right, i.e. giving the so called Dorothean scheme where the Moon is ruler of the earth triplicity by night. But in the example of M.L. King at the end of the booklet, he says that Mars is the second ruler of the earth triplicity by day, so I guess it is some mistake and it may be that we have some non-updated version of this work. Mine is from 2007, maybe he has an updated version where this is corrected?!

Posted: **Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:57 am**

Ile wrote:In describing the triplicity rulership on p.17-18, he explains them right, i.e. giving the so called Dorothean scheme where the Moon is ruler of the earth triplicity by night. But in the example of M.L. King at the end of the booklet, he says that Mars is the second ruler of the earth triplicity by day, so I guess it is some mistake and it may be that we have some non-updated version of this work. Mine is from 2007, maybe he has an updated version where this is corrected?!

Still,MLK being killed in favorable Moon cycle is odd no?

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