Skyscript Astrology Forum

Ile
I just found another case that tells me not to dismiss quadrant houses. I was looking for celebrities with Sun in 8th place,since this is said to be a bad sector for fame.
Nicole Kidman has Sun in 8th in WSH. Lord is in aversio in 9th,Sun is also lord of MC. Lord of Fortune isnt well placed either. What do you make of this one?

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Kidman%2C_Nicole

MorningSun wrote:Hello Ile,

Very interesting delineation. I am having difficult time seeing the 9th house cusp for chart 2. Looks to me like Saturn is in 8th also in the second chart, looks like 9th house starts at 24 degrees, and Saturn at 22?, not sure I am seeing it clearly though.

Hi Morning Sun, yes Saturn is in 22?Libra and the 9th house cusp is in 24?Libra, BUT Saturn in the second chart touches the cusp of 9th house with his own Orbs

In the first chart, Saturn doesn't touches the house cusp of 9th.

Also, in the second chart, Saturn is 2? away from the 9th house cusp and the 'rule' of 5? orb can be applied, for those who use this rule. I tend to use the orb of influence though.
Either way, Saturn touches the 9th.

Ile
I just found another case that tells me not to dismiss quadrant houses. I was looking for celebrities with Sun in 8th place,since this is said to be a bad sector for fame.
Nicole Kidman has Sun in 8th in WSH. Lord is in aversio in 9th,Sun is also lord of MC. Lord of Fortune isnt well placed either. What do you make of this one?

Damon, thanks for the example!
I will look at it at later time and will come back with my comments.

Nicole Kidman has a challenging chart, indeed. I calculated (with approximation) the Lots of Fortune (in Aries), of Spirit (in Taurus) and of Exaltation (in Leo). I found that the Spirit is ruled by angular Venus, who is conjunct with Exaltation. The Fortune has the Sun as almuten, the same who rules the Exaltation. So the Sun ties the Fortune with the Exaltation.

The 8th is not bad for fame, if you link fame with 10th. Why? Because the 8th is not in aversion with 10th, but with 1st. So 8th is good for money and career (aspects with 10th, 11th and 2nd), but not for health (aversion with 1st and sextile with 6th).

I've noticed that she needed a surrogate mother after the birth of the first child, I guess she had some post-natal complications. Looking at the Asc and 5th for fertility, the Water Signs are auspicious, but their rulers (Mars in 12th Sign Libra and Jupiter in sterile Leo) are not so good for health and childbearing. She was lucky just once in a lifetime, probably.

Makes sense,but Sun as general significator for fame doesnt like the 8th anyway

I am not able to wade through the pages of astrotheme,com easily due apparently to a script, but the few celebrities with Sun in 8th that Ive seen.Kidman appears to be an exception. Most seem to have the sun in 10th in WSH. If you wish to have a look just go to the statistic section

Here it is Nicole Kidman's chart calculated in Delphic Oracle:

Hellenistic style square chart for prosperity delineation: Tzadde already pointed some significant things which I will repeat here and would add something on my own.

If we look at the Hellenistic style chart, we would see points for prosperity, that is, the nativity has great basis (hupostasis).
Spirit is in 7th in Taurus, sign of Venus which is, as Tzadde pointed out, up in 10th WITH exaltation and WITH Jupiter who is ruler of Basis in Sagittarius.
So, we have here the two benefics ruling two important Lots being WITH the Exaltation in 10th!

Furthermore, as Sun is exaltation lord of Fortune, in the same way Moon is exaltation lord of Spirit and is WITH the basis!

Remember, we are looking at prosperity indicators. The opposition between Sun and Moon would play its role in other segments of the charts. Life is multileveled and fame, prosperity and happiness are not always or necessary tied together.
Curtis has great articles about such concepts on his site: astrology-X-files.

Looking the chart from a medieval astrology standpoint.
I would say that the thing that her husband is famous country singer-songwriter Kieth Urban, I would notice that Taurus on 7th and Venus elevated in heaven: her husband is someone who is a musician and is popular. [She also dated Lenny Kravitz]
Yet another delineation would be that the people who she meet on a daily basis are Venusian: artists, musicians, fashion people and etc; and popular, people who are related to her career (in 10th).

Sun in bi-corporeal sign without any other planet in that same sign, denotes two husbands.

For social status is also notable that both malefics are pressed in the cadency while both benefics elevated into the most visible spot in heaven in royal sign of Sun.

Makes sense,but Sun as general significator for fame doesnt like the 8th anyway

Yes, but Sun is not the only factor playing its role in fame. It is a complex subject and it must not to be taken lightly.

Sun is not in 10th, true; but its sign filled with the presence of the two Benefics is in 10th.

Prosperity, Eminence and Fame are closely related, though not the same.
Some profession are today more tied with popularity then others; so often, eminence in that profession automatically brings fame, in others, this is not necessarily the case.

Tzadde wrote: The 8th is not bad for fame, if you link fame with 10th. Why? Because the 8th is not in aversion with 10th, but with 1st. So 8th is good for money and career (aspects with 10th, 11th and 2nd), but not for health (aversion with 1st and sextile with 6th).

tzadde - you make an interesting point/observation here.. i am curious if you extend this logic to the the alternative house system off the midheaven with turns the 5th natal into the 8th from the midheaven and therefore being adverse to the 10th? same could be said for the 9th which becomes the 12th to the 10th and is also adverse.. i believe this is the same logic at work.. what do you think? in kidmans chart mercury is the only planet adverse to the midheaven according to this approach and happens to rule her sun...

Ile, i am familiar with a few of the modern ways that astrologers use to find fame or greater recognition and kidman has a few of these signatures. one is any planet in contact with the aries point - in kidmans chart the sun and venus both touch this point via hard aspect..

the sun/moon midpoint aspecting the ascendant or midheaven is another emphasis suggesting wider recognition and she has this too if you work with the 45 degree aspect. actually the 2 most important midpoints to consider - sun/moon and ascendant/midheaven both are at approx 20 virgo in this chart.. this is the same place that uranus happens to be.. this seems to highlight her wider recognition and status, but as someone here has already mentioned it is not an easy chart..

fwiw thought i would mention this and am curious to know tzadde's views on my question.
james

james_m wrote:tzadde - you make an interesting point/observation here.. i am curious if you extend this logic to the the alternative house system off the midheaven with turns the 5th natal into the 8th from the midheaven and therefore being adverse to the 10th?

Yes, I do. I had an argument with a modern astrologer who claimed that 4th is the house of mother, because (in Placidus) transiting Pluto hit IC when her mother died. I pointed out that IC is in 5th Sign and, therefore, is the 8th after 10th.

james_m wrote:same could be said for the 9th which becomes the 12th to the 10th and is also adverse.. i believe this is the same logic at work.. what do you think?

That's why I am reluctant to Hellenistic approach for 9th as House of power and authority. In 11th you rise to power, in 10th you are in power, but in 9th you fall from power. I understand that 9th is co-signified by Jupiter and is the joy of Sun, but I see that only makes 9th benevolent for these planets, i.e. Sun and Jupiter have more power in this place than other planets, so if Sun or Jupiter happen to rule the Asc and is placed in 9th in a nativity, I believe - at least in theory, I have to check it - that person has authority in his/her field of work as an expert of his/her chosen vocation, but the power is not as high as in 10th. It is, if you like, an advisor or consultant for the powers-to-be. The lack of connection between 10th and 9th can be seen like 10th doesn't always listen to 9th.

Just to conclude: there is dignity for 9th and that's why it was always regarded as a positive House, but I wouldn't take it in account for fame or prosperity, unless there is Sun or Jupiter involved. Of course, the rest of chart matters (the Lots and other levers).

james_m wrote:in kidmans chart mercury is the only planet adverse to the midheaven according to this approach and happens to rule her sun...

Mercury isn't exactly involved in Kidman's status. The Sun is indeed inconjunct Mercury, but in my view that means we should look for another dispositor of Sun, which is Saturn, as he is next in dignity after Mercury (I take domicile, exaltation or triplicity in this order).

thanks tzadde!

one could get in an argument with any astrologer- modern or traditional - over an issue of how a particular parent was represented in the chart! it is not an easy matter of father=4th house and mother=10th.. i am more inclined to view the midheaven axis as having to do with the parents, the ic in particular.. i like how you tied that together though with her words on the transit of pluto to the 5th sign ic - 5th being the 8th from the 10th..

as for your comments on the 9th house, i think traditional astrology's ideas on the houses are based off there connection to the ascendant(ptolemaic aspects), not the midheaven. the 9th house forms a trine to the ascendant which is considered positive in that it has a plotemaic aspect to the ascendant which the 8th house or example, just doesn't have.. this is reversed in connection to the midheaven.. therefore a perspective on the role of a planet in a chart hinges on which axis one is considering.. the ascendant has always been given priority over the midheaven as i understand it, however important both points are to the chart.. it will be difficult for one to accomplish anything, as represented to an extent by the midheaven, without a chart that has an effective ascendant with planets in tow. perhaps others here see this differently and i would be curious. both axis always need to be considered either way..

the focus on the ascendant axis is put in a different light when the focus shifts to the midheaven axis. i am not sure why more astrologers don't consider this more other then to point out the ongoing dilemma that astrologers regularly face with house systems and how to incorporate ideas of ws houses, verses quadrant based house systems where the midheaven axis is always on the 4/10 house cusp. perhaps this is another reflection of this ongoing dilemma that those riding the fence of using 2 house systems simultaneously have to grapple with..

james_m wrote:therefore a perspective on the role of a planet in a chart hinges on which axis one is considering..

You see, the role depends on the topic you are going to debate. If you want to see the status of the native, you give priority to the 10th House over the Ascendant. That's how I see it.

The Asc is the native and is the most important because this represents his body, and by body one can express himself in the world. You express yourself by your simple presence (1st House), by your money (2nd), by your words (3rd) and so on... I can agree with that. But we can't mix things up. I thought the focus of discussion was on the status to be spotted in nativities.

So what do you want to talk about?