Skyscript Astrology Forum

lihin wrote:Good morning,

For information i did a study on differences amongst primary directions data produced by some astrology softwares including Janus, Morinus and Placidus. I brought these differences to the attention of the various developers. Generally the differences with the ephemerides used by ex. gr. Phasis are very slight, even negligible, but on some occasions, ex. gr. with the Moon's position a few centuries back, they might be considered significant, especially when working with primary directions when the dates can differ up to one month by experience.

I don't know about Janus but Morinus is correct. I did and re-did calculations tons of time, even by hand in order to check them with Cieloeterra calculations.

I checked almost every kind of directions in Morinus, under the pole, semiarc, mundane....

So Phasis and Morinus agree. And Kolev's Placidus fits with Morinus....

Tom wrote:

In the examples in the book the Moon, positied below the ASC is directed to the ASC we have an example of the promissor (the Moon) being directed to the ASC (significator) in direct motion. IF we direct the ASC to the Moon, which I understand is converse, how can it be that we are directing in the same order of the zodiac? You reply (sorry if I'm putting incorrect words in your mouth. In fact I probably am but this is the way I understand it and I"m sure I"m understanding it wrong or I wouldn't be writing), we aren't really directing the ASC we're directing the Moon to the ASC. Well then how is converse different from direct, then?

In my mind, and I know this is where my mistake is I just can't figure out how, in order for the above to be possible, the Moon has to switch from promissor to significator in order to meet the above definitions. But in that case we are moving backwards in the zodiac from the ASC to the Moon. Or if we're still moving from the Moon to the ASC, then there is no difference in the two directions. Yet there are differences in timing as the printout shows in Placidus.

Tom, you should always maintain that you should move against the order of the signs, direct or converse direction in a tradition direction.

For example if the Sun is in the first quadrant, let us say 5 Capricorn and Saturn is 20 Capricorn (Ascendant 4 Aquarius) when Saturn arrives at Sun that's a DIRECT DIRECTION. How does Saturn move? With its speed, every planet has its own. Saturn here is the promissor because promises DEATH, the Sun is the significator of life.

If the Sun is in the second quadrant, let us say at 20 Leo when it will arrive (with its own speed) at the Descendant, so always against the order of the sign, this is a CONVERSE direction in a traditional way, because it is the significator of life which moves and sets, touching the Descendant, which is the PROMISSOR, because promises the death.

So in Morinus for example you should choose as promissor the planets which follows in the order of the signs, and as significator, the one which precedes.

Hope I was clear,

margherita

I think I get you, Tom, and I'll try briefly to explain.

The terms significator and promissor originally had nothing to do with the distinction fixed/moving. The significator was simply a point that signified something, such as the angles or the luminaries (and some, like Morin, included the planets here as well). It was considered 'passive' only in the sense that it received influences from the planets and their aspects, etc. The latter points promised (or threatened) to influence the significators actively for better or worse; hence they were called promissors.

So we can say that significators are passive and promissors active, but only in the sense of emitting and receiving influences. Again, it has nothing to do with which point is fixed and which is moving.

As a matter of convention, the significator is always said to be directed to the promissor. Let's say you have the Moon in the 1st or 2nd house below the horizon. When the Moon reaches the horizon, we call the direction Ascendant to [the conjunction of] the Moon by direct motion because the significator is kept fixed. (The ascendant has no active power, so it can never be a promissor; therefore it must be the significator, and the Moon, which could theoretically be either, must be the promissor.)

If, on the other hand, you move the natal ascendant degree with the primary motion until it reaches the place of the Moon's radical sextile in the 11th or 12th house, that direction would be called Ascendant to the sextile of the Moon by converse motion because the significator is moved while the promissor (the Moon's aspect point) is kept fixed.

Does that make things clearer for you?

The terms significator and promissor originally had nothing to do with the distinction fixed/moving. The significator was simply a point that signified something, such as the angles or the luminaries (and some, like Morin, included the planets here as well). It was considered 'passive' only in the sense that it received influences from the planets and their aspects, etc. The latter points promised (or threatened) to influence the significators actively for better or worse; hence they were called promissors.

Yes it does and after I wrote out everything, and thought about it, I kind of expected this answer, but since I spent the time writing it out, and there is always the possibility I could be wrong (really? Yup) I posted anyway. You never explicitly said significators sit still while promissors move and I kind of figured, later, that the above answer is where you were heading.

My problem is that I did try to assign "fixed" and "moving" to the words promissor and significator one way or the other, and apply that in all cases. I'll look at things a little differently now. Thanks for taking the time and yes it does clear up things, and helped with my using Pladicus.

Placidus 7.0 does not have an option to use LAT that Worsdale uses. Solar Fire does. I just took the difference in LAT and GMT from SF and applied that to the chart in Placidus then "rectified" it to get Worsdale's angles or as close as can get to them. That works well enough.

You're welcome, Tom. Happy holidays!

A few technical remarks only.
The results are the same in programs Placidus 7, Morinus and Phasis, as Margherita wrote.

Time 11:30 p.m. = 23:41:48 GMT, key Placidus.

Mars D -> con. Moon mundo :

Worsdale 7,1
Placidus 6,9942
Morinus 6,994
Phasis 6,99

Moon D -> con. Saturn mundo :

Worsdale 10,56
Placidus 11,01281
Morinus 11,012
Phasis 11,02

Mercur D -> quadrature Moon mundo :

Worsdale 1,0
Placidus 0,82553
Morinus 0,826
Phasis 0,82

Saturn D -> quadrature Sun mundo :

Worsdale 2,017
Placidus 2,37706
Morinus 2,376
Phasis 2,38

Moon D -> quadrature Sun mundo :

Worsdale 12,9
Placidus 13,33092
Morinus 13,33
Phasis 13,34

The difference is caused by the inaccuracy of tables that used Worsdale.
Time derived from RAMC = 247?4?, which he stated, corresponds 23:40:01 GMT.
This time gives the following results(Placidus):

7,06793 6.4.1824
11,01777 25.1.1828
1,02247 4.6.1818
1,98566 10.5.1819
12,95436 5.12.1829

This is a very good agreement with Worsdale.

Petr wrote:A few technical remarks only.
The results are the same in programs Placidus 7, Morinus and Phasis, as Margherita wrote.

Time 11:30 p.m. = 23:41:48 GMT, key Placidus.

How do you get this equation? According to Solar Fire, the difference between LAT and GMT is 10m 4s, which fits Worsdale's angles very closely.

I used LMT.
Josph Kent was born June 6, 1817 in Liverpool. Worsdale gives longitude 2 ? 57 'W.
This implies LMT = + 11.48. The same data gives Solar Fire.

Petr wrote:I used LMT.

I see. Worsdale didn't, though, so my original observations still hold.

Good afternoon,

Preface: no intent to prove one software 'right', another 'wrong'. As far as i know, Dr H, Regulus Astrology, used Janus as the underlying tool for the primary directions used in his voluminous book A Rectification Manual: The American Presidency. If there are any significant differences between the data produced by Janus and those produced by others, they might have a material impact on Dr H's work.

Janus shows Liverpool, England, at 2w55', 53n25' with a LMT differece of 11m41s. Here are some planet positions, tropical zodiac of the northern hemisphere:

Planet Positions

Birth Data

KENT Joseph
Natal Chart
6 Jun 1817
23:30:00
LMT +00:11:41
Liverpool
England
2w55'00
53n25'00
Geocentric
Tropical
Sign as House
Mean Node
B: Bio/Autobiography

Ecliptic Coordinates

Longitude
Sun 15 48' 11" Gemini
Moon 18 40' 57" Pisces
Merc 23 47' 18" Gemini R
Venu 22 51' 07" Taurus R
Mars 10 16' 10" Aries
Jupi 04 37' 14" Sagittarius R
Satu 05 56' 10" Pisces
Asc 09 07' 38" Aquarius
MC 09 12' 34" Sagittarius

Velocity
Sun +000 57' 22"
Moon +012 13' 50"
Merc -000 26' 24"
Venu -000 13' 09"
Mars +000 44' 06"
Jupi -000 07' 22"
Satu +000 00' 57"
Asc +626 13' 23"
MC +338 59' 46"

Latitude
Sun 00 s 00' 00"
Moon 04 s 53' 37"
Merc 01 s 59' 13"
Venu 01 s 25' 33"
Mars 01 s 44' 20"
Jupi 00 n 51' 09"
Satu 01 s 34' 15"
Asc 00 n 00' 00"
MC 00 n 00' 00"

Equatorial Coordinates

Right Ascension
Sun 074 34' 54"
Moon 351 32' 08"
Merc 083 20' 01"
Venu 050 49' 29"
Mars 010 07' 12"
Jupi 242 49' 12"
Satu 338 18' 48"
Asc 311 34' 00"
MC 247 30' 55"

Declination
Sun 22 n 42' 24"
Moon 08 s 58' 52"
Merc 21 n 20' 00"
Venu 17 n 07' 28"
Mars 02 n 28' 16"
Jupi 20 s 14' 47"
Satu 10 s 48' 13"
Asc 17 s 59' 30"
MC 21 s 51' 15"

Technical Details

JD 2384862,487269
DT 11,9 sec
GMT 23h 41m 40s
LST 16h 30m 04s
SVP 7 48' 46" Pisces
OBL 23 27' 52"

Here are the planetary selections in order to obtain the primary directions in the lists already posted. The definitions of 'promissor and significator', 'direct and converse' do not seem to be identical in all software programmes. Personally, i find Professor Gansten's definitions coherent. Since i read his book rather early in my studies of primary directions, i fortunately avoided the kind of issues experienced by some others.
Here is a table from Janus showing the primary directions and the parameters selected:
Obviously, only some were found relevant by Mr John Worsdale. There are differences of arcs and dates that, if one, like Dr H, uses primary directions as one tool amongst several to rectify event times to seconds of time and arcs, might well be significant.

Best regards,

lihin

Good morning,

The current Wikipedia entry on Liverpool, England, states its geographical coordinates as 53n24'0s, 3w0'0", a location in the River Mersey as can be seen by following the link.

If one enters John Worsdale's values, 53n22', 2w57', into Janus, one obtains an MC of 9SA12'34" and an Asc of 9AQ09'25" (Worsdale: MC 8SA48', Asc 8AQ27'). If one rectifies the birth time to Worsdale's MC it would be 23h28m16s LMT with Asc 8AQ24'19".

The following primary directions with Worsdale's coordinates and the stated rectified birth time as calculated by Janus are:
Here are similar data but WITHOUT time rectification:
Due to the extreme time sensitivity of primary directions, such data comparisons are, methinks, perhaps rather pesky but not tangential. They underscore the adage: Do not jump to conclusions.

Best regards,

lihin