Hi guys

If I am allowed to join in, I'd like to set forth my observations how planets are affected for better or worse and which testimony shall dominate if there are many contradictory ones.

The rules I will state here is from my experience of judging soccer charts but if we map them onto natal, they seem to work the same way.

The places from where the effect, for better or worse, on a planet is stronger are:

1) the angles of the chart;

2) the place near the nonagesimal;

3) the stake signs of the sign the relevant planet is in (for instance, if a planet is in Leo, the stakes are Scorpio, Aquarius and Taurus);

4) the stake signs of the domicile and exaltation of the relevant planet.

Remember the rules:

1) a regard from a stake (1st, 4th, 7th and 10th signs) is stronger than a one from a trine or sextile; from the stakes, conjunction (both planets in the same sign) is stronger than opposition (7th sign), opposition (7th sign) is stronger than square (4th or 10th sign); a regard from the 10th sign (overcoming position) is stronger that one from the 4th sign (example: a planet is in Scorpio, a regard from a Leo (10th sign from Scorpio) is stronger than a one from Aquarius (4th sign from Scorpio).

2) the closer to partile regard, the stronger its effect (for instance if you have a whole sign regard from a square and an almost partile regard from a trine, the trine regard shall prevail);

3) the closer to the angles or the nonagesimal regard, the stronger will be its effect.

If we apply the rules to the first chart, then the effect of Venus on the Moon will be stronger Mars's. Because Venus regards the Moon from an angle, is closer to partile and the regard is from a stake of the exaltation of Moon. Besides, her regard has a more topical influence on character and temperament (generally signified by first house) than Mars's. My experience shows that Morin was right saying that the planet's placement in a particular house affects the same house stronger than its rulership over the house.

Not knowing this guy, I would say (ignoring all other factors) Venus gives 70% of accidental influence on Moon while Mars 30%.

In the second chart it is clear that Saturn is overcoming Moon, although fortunately limited in his strength by Jupiter, who disposes both Moon and Saturn.

Ignoring all other factors, I would give 70% of accidental influence to Jupiter and 30% to Saturn because Jupiter is closer to an angle (relatively, retrograde planets are stronger in the Western angle while direct ones in the Eastern one, those who belong to the day sect are stronger rising and culminating; those who belong to the night sect are stronger in the Western and North angles), closer to partile than Saturn. Dispositor's or the exaltation ruler's regard from a stake is stronger than the regard of a planet who has no essential force in the place of the planet who is being influenced.

Overcoming is a strong testimony and must be always taken into account, but the actual strength of its impact is relative, as other factors can easily outweigh it and negate to nil.

Hi Janis,

tnx, that clarifies a lot for me..

One question though:
what's a nonagesimal?

Yuki

Hi Yukionna

"Nonagesimal" is the highest point of the part of the ecliptic which is at any given moment above the horizon; it is the ninetieth degree of the ecliptic, reckoned from the points in which it is intersected by the horizon.

janis,
you've got some interesting astro perspectives.. thanks for sharing.. i was most intrigued by your comment on retro planets in the west verses east.. i assume this is solely based on your experience, but if there is any other factor or author that has led you to this view, i'd be curious.

if i was to ask one question on your reasoning it has to do with the 1st chart and your comment i have highlighted in bold. i assume you make this comment purely on the closeness of venus to the rising degree and that it factors more heavily then the square aspect between moon mars where moon is applying to this same mars.. that is interesting and i wouldn't have thought that and not just due scorpio and the venus being in mars domain. i suppose the only way we could know is if we were to be told more about the persons experiences emotionally speaking. i view square aspects as a more dominating influence then trine aspects generally, although involving the fire/water elements in this square not as much. i think they are more of a problem involving fire/earth, or air/water. i agree with you on morins observations too up to a point - sorry for the qualifier!. if you have anything to add to this area of your commentary, i'd be interested. thanks!

Janis Valkovskis wrote:
If we apply the rules to the first chart, then the effect of Venus on the Moon will be stronger Mars's. Because Venus regards the Moon from an angle, is closer to partile and the regard is from a stake of the exaltation of Moon. Besides, her regard has a more topical influence on character and temperament (generally signified by first house) than Mars's. My experience shows that Morin was right saying that the planet's placement in a particular house affects the same house stronger than its rulership over the house.

Not knowing this guy, I would say (ignoring all other factors) Venus gives 70% of accidental influence on Moon while Mars 30%.

Thanks to Janis for this very clear and stimulating outline of some rules about overcoming.
This also led me to Janis's fascinating thread on Algorythm for reading football charts, which for the first time in my life makes we want to get into betting:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... sc&start=0
Janis, you should write a book!
Graham

janis,
you've got some interesting astro perspectives.. thanks for sharing.. i was most intrigued by your comment on retro planets in the west verses east.. i assume this is solely based on your experience, but if there is any other factor or author that has led you to this view, i'd be curious.

Hi James,

First of all, I raise a hypothesis how it should be according to my understanding and then I try it in practice and seek for traditional texts to support my ideas. Most of the rules I have mentioned in the Sports section are the fruit of hypotheses having been tried in practice and only after found somewhere written in a similar way in traditional texts. Others are 'traditional rules' with my slant. My comments you referred to are solely based on my hypotheses and experience and I would be happy if I were to find support in traditional texts.

i assume you make this comment purely on the closeness of venus to the rising degree and that it factors more heavily then the square aspect between moon mars where moon is applying to this same mars.. that is interesting and i wouldn't have thought that and not just due scorpio and the venus being in mars domain. i suppose the only way we could know is if we were to be told more about the persons experiences emotionally speaking. i view square aspects as a more dominating influence then trine aspects generally, although involving the fire/water elements in this square not as much. i think they are more of a problem involving fire/earth, or air/water. i agree with you on morins observations too up to a point - sorry for the qualifier!

Deadly sure that the stake aspects have a more dominating influence than so called harmonious aspects. I made my comment on Venus's influence on the Moon not only because her closeness to the rising degree but also because of other factors such as her regard from Scorpio which is the stake of Venus domicile and Moon's exaltation, her closeness to partile. We have 3 strong testimonies for Venus and only one for Mars.
Mars rules Venus but in fact has little influence on her due to the lack of regard. From my experience I can say that the lack of regard in the mildest form is the total indifference of the host to the guest but in the gravest form a serious debility which totally spoils the business.

Judging on emotional qualities of planets is not my strongest point because of my airy dominating chart (both luminaries and Mercury airy). But anyway I would bet that the dominant emotional influence comes from Venus rather than Mars.




Graham,

thank you for the encouragement. Perhaps, I would.

great comments janis. thanks! i don't doubt the importance of planets in angles and i like how you've extended the idea of venus's relevance here based on the fixed cross. i really like that idea and see why you therefore think it overshadows mars influence on the chart, but i am not so sure on its influence on the moon perhaps due some of the same rationale - mars and moons being a part of the mutable cross. you've definitely given me something worthwhile to think about and i thank you for that.

Well since we have a disucssion on it, I feel I should be more candid and say that the first chart is my own. As with everything, no one factor stands on its own and both Venus and Mars influence my own character and responses quite clearly. I'd say this is to be expected since Venus has dignity in the ASC and is conjoined to it.

If we try to narrow down the influences on the Moon herself though, we can get some more information on what is working more forcelfully or less so. The Moon shows the body and I am forever banging into things, cutting myself, burning myself and other various accidents and physical mishaps. I don't think Venus' influence is non-existant but she influences this combination by making these accidents only minor (as would Mars' reception of the Moon and Jupiter's overcoming of her).

Interestingly, the Moon is exalted lord of the 7th. I have no explosive temper in general life, I can be sharp and to the point and contentious (to be expected with Mars ruling the ASC) but I'm not prone to public fights or rages (I believe Venus on the ASC). However, my relationships are marked by arguments and bickering and I am notoriously short fused with my girlfriends, impatient and very Martian. The worst of it is nullified by reception but Mars is still hugely influential in my relationships, both with the women I attract and my behaviour towards them. I asked my girlfriend if this fits and she replied that it does but that I also teach her things of a more metaphysical nature, so I don't think Jupiter can be entirely ignored. She thinks Mars is more prevalent though. This is all also true in any form of competition or sport, I have to win.

The point is I think Venus will influence the Moon (especially due to the reception) when we are talking of general things but when we have things particuarly determined by the Moon, Mars' influence is definitely the more dominating.

I think if we take anything to do with the life of the native itself or the general state of the planets as found in the nativity, then for me, Venus will be more prominent due to her angularity. Howver, when we talk of overcoming, we are talking of a particular point. So anything involving the Moon will have Mars (and Jupiter) as a dominating influence. The point gives us the context, its stakes its foundational elements and its 10th sign that which dominates its expression. Angularity of the ASC and the stakes of a point are two different things. They are two different contexts and, in my opinon, must be treated as such if we are to achieve accuracy in our delineations.

Thank you, Konrad, for coming out. At least we know how the overcoming works in your life as per your description. Real life is not a theory, though.

If I got you right, you prefer Venus's dominance to Mars's when we are dealing with the life as a whole on a broad scale. But when it comes to the accidents to the body, you think that Mars dominates because of his overcoming the Moon while Venus and Jupiter offers a protective shield.

Don't you think that you would have had your head cut off, so to speak, long ago but for Venus's and Jupiter's protection, if your Mars (out of sect malefic which receives the pushed nature (Moon in the bounds and face of Mars)/management (if we take into consideration only domicile or exaltation to qualify for pushing nature) from a waxing (close to full) Moon) had been allowed to act with a dominant power.

Suppose we are dealing with a particular accident brought about by Mars and that Mars would be allowed to act with 70 % from its natural and accidental malice on the Moon (the body) while Venus and Jupiter would be able to reduce only 30% from Mars's malice. I think a serious injury can be expected.

If in this particular accident Venus and Jupiter are able to reduce 70% from Mars's malice you are still harmed because 30% of Mars's malice is still operative but the harm is relatively minor and you are expected to recover very soon because of Venus's and Jupiter's beneficial dominant influence on the Moon.

My current understanding is that stakes act as an impetus for accidents but the ultimate outcome depends on many other factors (hierarchy of testimonies) which can inflate what is promised by the stake impetus or negate it almost to nil. As concerns the stakes of malefics, if there is no or little protection of benefics, when the configuration is activated you are a dead man or the area of life affected is completely ruined.

Angularity of the ASC and the stakes of a point are two different things. They are two different contexts and, in my opinon, must be treated as such if we are to achieve accuracy in our delineations.

I agree with you, and I think that I didn't create an impression that I am blending the angularity of the ASC (with Venus here) and the stakes of the Moon (with Mars here) in a cocktail.

I am not a mathematician but enjoy sorting things out and give numbers to astrological factors influencing this or that realm of life, event, etc.

Regards
Janis

Janis Valkovskis wrote:Thank you, Konrad, for coming out. At least we know how the overcoming works in your life as per your description. Real life is not a theory, though.

No but real-life happenings illustrate which theory will predict correctly.

If I got you right, you prefer Venus's dominance to Mars's when we are dealing with the life as a whole on a broad scale. But when it comes to the accidents to the body, you think that Mars dominates because of his overcoming the Moon while Venus and Jupiter offers a protective shield.

Yes, sort of. I am saying Venus is more prominent in the chart and in the native's life (through Venusian things, natural and through her rulerships) than Mars is but in the context of the Moon's significations, she is not. She certainly supports the Moon (as a benefic receiving one of her triplicity mates) and can do so in a powervul way due to her angularity, but she does not dominate the Moon's significations (relationships, the body, the mother, sisters, the death etc.) and is not foundational to these manifestations and events, that would be Mars' role. I feel that she and Jupiter do restrain Mars in this regard as she gives support to the Moon and Mars is in Jupiter's house

Don't you think that you would have had your head cut off, so to speak, long ago but for Venus's and Jupiter's protection, if your Mars (out of sect malefic which receives the pushed nature (Moon in the bounds and face of Mars)/management (if we take into consideration only domicile or exaltation to qualify for pushing nature) from a waxing (close to full) Moon) had been allowed to act with a dominant power.

No, because Mars is in some dignity, receiving the Moon and is determined towards life being the lord of the ASC. I think you are trying to say that Venus dominates here? I really don't think this is the case and I haven't seen any reason which convinces me otherwise.

I have some examples here on Skyscript of when Mars was activated as time-lord via profections with other indications also being present (the Mars/Moon figure repeating in the Revolution while the Moon was directing through Mars' bounds), but I can't find them now. Here is a link to my blog post on the subject: http://esmaraldaastrology.blog.com/2013 ... ns-part-1/

It was quite a serious thing, I was hospitalised abroad after being attacked by a couple of people. Only a female friend (Venus as 11th lord) intervening while I was on the ground unconcious stopped it becoming more life-threatening. Mars dominated the event (bloodshed from violence perpetrated to the body) but Venus supported the Moon by restricting the harm and providing type of aid which she signifies as a benefic. If Venus had dominated the Moon as you say, I wouldn't have been attacked as I was, the event would have been Venusian with a Martial tone.

Suppose we are dealing with a particular accident brought about by Mars and that Mars would be allowed to act with 70 % from its natural and accidental malice on the Moon (the body) while Venus and Jupiter would be able to reduce only 30% from Mars's malice. I think a serious injury can be expected.

See above. The minor accidents I spoke of are continual as they are found in the natal figure, this was just ramped up a few notches as Mars was ruling the times and repeating his figure with the Moon. This year, for example, Pisces is the sign of the profected ASC while Mars is opposing the lord of the year at the time of the Revolution. I have had continual, more minor, health problems (allergic reactions, throat infections, all Martial in nature) this year which is highly unusual as my health is generally perfect. This configuration mirrors the 2nd accident I had the year after being attack when I broke my foot playing sports: http://esmaraldaastrology.blog.com/2013 ... ns-part-2/

If I'm getting you right, I think you are saying Venus dominates while Mars is secondary due to a few factors. I'd say this isn't correct as it isn't about adding up testimonies and numbers but about blending significations together. The stakes show foundational traits and significations related to an event, the trines will show support of it. These are two different things and can't be added to or subtracted from each other. Again, in my being attacked the Mars was foundational to the event, it was Martian in nature concerning my body, but Venus supported in her own way as she is strong enough to do so, was also repeating in the Revolution and she wanted to do so via her receiving the Moon and being determined towards life being benefic and having dignity in the ASC. Without her, I can't say what would have happened but I don't think the female support (trine from Venus) would have been given to me.

Hi Konrad

If I'm getting you right, I think you are saying Venus dominates while Mars is secondary due to a few factors.

I suppose you got me wrong, I was not saying that you are going to enjoy predominantly Venusian things.

I wrote:

My current understanding is that stakes act as an impetus for accidents but the ultimate outcome depends on many other factors (hierarchy of testimonies) which can inflate what is promised by the stake impetus or negate it almost to nil. As concerns the stakes of malefics, if there is no or little protection of benefics, when the configuration is activated you are a dead man or the area of life affected is completely ruined.

What I am trying to say is that the impetus (cause) comes from stakes (in your case Mars - harm to the body) but the ultimate outcome not. You might concede a few goals but still win the game ...

In the event about what you were reporting the outcome fortunately was not determined by Mars but rather by the influence of benefics (in particular Venus). If it had been the other way round, we wouldn't have been discussing the effects of overcoming here ...

It is, of course, my speculation what would have happened but for Venus's protection and I admit I might be wrong, but at least it is in line with my current understanding.

In fact, you should know far better than anybody else in this forum how your chart manifests in real life. I am not questioning your theory and interpretation which, in my opinion, is fundamentally correct, at least how I understand things.

Regards
Janis

Janis Valkovskis wrote:I suppose you got me wrong, I was not saying that you are going to enjoy predominantly Venusian things.

No, I meant are you thinking that Venus dominates over Mars in the context of Lunar things, not the chart in general.

What I am trying to say is that the impetus (cause) comes from stakes (in your case Mars - harm to the body) but the ultimate outcome not. You might concede a few goals but still win the game ...

Yes and I am saying the game itself is different if Mars in in the stakes of a planet rather than say Venus or Jupiter. The trine from Venus will influence the scoreline of the game according to its nature and its determinations but not the game and result itself - it is a Martian game and I'm going to lose regardless of Venus, it is just Venus might make me lose by only one goal rather than being thrashed by four.

In the event about what you were reporting the outcome fortunately was not determined by Mars but rather by the influence of benefics (in particular Venus). If it had been the other way round, we wouldn't have been discussing the effects of overcoming here ...

Well if you think that being hospitalised due to being beaten by angry, drunk young men is positive, I won't argue with you but I don't agree. If it was the other way around (Venus dominating) I wouldn't have been beaten by two youths, I would have some sexual disease or diabetes or something Venusian but very hot or infectious (Martian tone), that is if Venus dominatng would have been bad for the body. Maybe those guys would have bought me some beer and dinner if the Venusian aspect of my particular chart was dominating. Maybe they would have made me put on my winter coat of fat early, but Venus would not show them beating me which was the root event and manifestation. Everything else is secondary.

It is, of course, my speculation what would have happened but for Venus's protection and I admit I might be wrong, but at least it is in line with my current understanding.

Then I cannot tell you that you are mistaken, as I can't tell you what is right or wrong for you but only show you why I think the way I do. I think I have made my point, so unless there is anything new to add, I will leave it there.