I don't know how many astrologers - even "traditional" astrologers - could look me in the eye, hand on heart, and say they would expect no significant upsets when they saw in their ephemeris that, say, Uranus was opposing their Sun, with Neptune crossing their Ascendant, and Pluto squaring the Moon and Mars!! I would find it surprising, honestly, if any person could say that such a period "was humdrum and ordinary!"

Well, I've only got one of those at the moment and that is bad enough. I've had Pluto squaring my natal Moon for what feels like about 300 years (it's my unaspected Uranus that makes me exaggerate ) but is, in fact, a mere one year. I only have nine months to go before it moves out of orb. I must say that it has definitely been one of the most challenging periods for me emotionally.

I consider myself to be a traditional astrologer but I do not discount the outer planets entirely. My favourite personal experience that I like to recount when talking about outer planets is that when Uranus crossed my Ascendant, I ruptured my aorta. It's a bit hard to discount outer planets after that. Uranus is a planet that likes to rupture (think earthquakes) but I wasn't expecting such a literal experience of the transit to my Ascendant. I would usually only take into account transits to the personal planets and angles. If Pluto is transiting Uranus, for example, then whole groups of people will experience the same transits.

I don't usually use the outer planets in horary but sometimes it makes sense to pay attention to something if it seems relevent. A good example is the one kurgal gave. If I did a career question and Pluto was sitting on the MC, I would want to know what that meant rather than ignoring it.

One area where I am convinced of the significance of outer planets is in mundane astrology. I've seen too many charts where the outer planets figure prominently to just ignore them. I wouldn't use the outer planets for electional or decumbiture charts because it doesn't seem appropriate to do so. I don't believe in an all or nothing approach. Sometimes it is relevant to use outer planets, sometimes it isn't.

Sue,

So Kim, do you also disregard the outer planets in mundane event charts?

This, I can't answer properly because I don't really do any mundane astrology. I've looked at charts, as has everyone, after major events, and read the analysis done by others. But as I don't really have the experience in this area I can't really have an opinion.

Fair enough. I was just curious. But it's got me thinking now. I wonder if there are traditional mundane astrologers who work with only the traditional planets when either predicting events or interpreting those that have already occurred. I know mundane astrology was around before the outer three were discovered but I'm thinking more of modern day traditionalists. For example, Ptolemy always gave earthquakes to Mercury. Are there astrologers today who continue that tradition or would they generally give earthquakes to Uranus? I will have to see what I can find.

I know "transform" sounds like a very grand word, perhaps "change" is better. I don't know about you, but I've had many clients who have been interested in career changes, or finding a career that is a better reflection of who they are, or finding a more meaningful role instead of carrying on in a "dead-end" job where they feel bored and unfulfilled.

Transform and change are different words and carry different connotations. Yes, I've dealt with clients who've sought to make major changes in their career life. However, not usually to a level that could be described as invoking a transformation.
For most life issues I've found that the seven classical planets describe the situation more than adequately. But it does depend on how you use them. Many of the traditional rulerships to the classical planets have been attributed to the outer planets in recent years. For example, Neptune is associated with drugs whereas traditionally we would have used Mars. Except in situations when a drug such as an anaesthetic is involved, clearly a modern drug treatment that I'm happy to associate with Neptune, I have found that Mars fits more than comfortably. Also, anything that is of real importance in someones life will be illustrated with a number of differing planetary combinations taking place at around the same time. Therefore, should Pluto be triggering a point in the chart it is highly likely that Mars is doing a similar thing at the same time. I would focus on the Mars although in the end, we would probably reach the same conclusion. This is what I mean by "clutter".

While I can readily accept an argument that the outer planets should play a much more limited role (or even no role) in horary astrology, I don't think you can ignore them in natal astrology and still give accurate and valid interpretations.

There are some attributed rulerships that can only be applied to the outer planets because they relate to issues/things of modern times. In those situations it would be remiss to ignore them. However, considering that the attributed rulerships to the classical planets are incredibly comprehensive, some creative thought regarding the root meanings of rulerships make it relatively straightforward to apply these rulerships there. For example, Uranus is generally associated with aviation. I recently saw Sue Ward successfully analyse a number of charts relating to plane crashes using Lilly's associations with ships, a ship being then the large scale mode of transport and directly equivalent to a plane in those terms. With enough awareness of the full range of rulerships I believe it is perfectly possible to give valid and accurate natal interpretations without the outer planets. That doesn't mean that I am always skilled enough to do so as I learned astrology in the modern way and am still adjusting my brain.

I don't ignore them completely in natal work and synastry. Though, on balance, I tend to ignore them more and more as time goes on. However, they clearly work for you, so more power to your elbow. We may simply have to agree to differ on this one.

best,

Kim

I think any angular planet directly aspected by a main significator is worth exploring, but I?m not sure of the relevance asked about in the opening post, which concerns Pluto receiving the final aspects in the chart. There?s no information that Pluto is sitting on an angle, no details of the orbs considered and no assessment of the other aspects that perfect first. From the few details given it?s impossible to tell whether Pluto is significant, or whether prohibition is taking place. I don?t care for ?final aspects?; the immediate applications are usually much more relevant and illuminating, whether they cross sign borders or not. I wouldn?t consider the Moon?s aspect to Pluto if, say, the Moon is early in the sign and passes through a number of contacts before reaching Pluto which is well out of orb at the time the question is asked. Now that Pluto at 23 degrees and Saturn is retrograding through that degree with the ?heavy? planets all in earlier degrees, most of our horaries are going to end up with ?final aspects? to Pluto. The contact will be more significant in some charts than others.

PL ? If you feel the aspects are significant, your assessment that they should be prepared for deep emotional and psychological transformation and ready for heavy, deep changes and ready to work at them if things are to turn out well, is fairly sensible advice; but I think you should aim to explore Pluto?s involvement more closely to be more informative in the advice you offer.

Any planet, in fact any chart, is capable of showing a potential for transformation and the depth of that depends upon the depth of the querent?s willingness to relate to the chart as a means to assess their involvement in the situation and establish a course of action that is wise, mature and profitable from as broad a perspective as possible. If Pluto has an importance in a relationship chart, think about the things it might represent for that relationship. Although the aspects are ?positive? Pluto is a dark and passionate feminine energy so it could suggest obsession, jealousy, or anything from the involvement of a manipulative mother or revengeful ex to the fact that meet each other near a sewer? Sid Viscious and Nancy Spungen had a very heavy emotional draw and transformative relationship and they ended up being the death of each other. Look for indications of basic compatibility and easy relaxed communication before you recommend them to pursue the relationship on the basis of the final ?positive? aspects to Pluto.

Kim, I can't beleive you didn't realise you had Sun sq Pluto when it is so obvious to anyone who knows you. I mean, do you ever give up on anything? As a civil example, think about how ruthlessly obsessive you are in digging up little known facts. I bet even now you are like a hounddog on the hunt in your search for early sun-sign references.

Kim, I can't beleive you didn't realise you had Sun sq Pluto when it is so obvious to anyone who knows you. I mean, do you ever give up on anything?

Sa Cap cnj Asc? opp Ma?

As a civil example, think about how ruthlessly obsessive you are in digging up little known facts

Thank God you stuck to the civil version but Me Sco cnj MC is what I say to that. With a bit of Sa Cap cnj Asc opp Ma.

I bet even now you are like a hounddog on the hunt in your search for early sun-sign references.

That's cheating. You know I am. I only told you half an hour ago

I'm in 1522 at the moment with John de Indagine's instructions on how to do a solar horoscope. Give me a few days and I'll get it back to the 11th century with a bit of luck.

Ok, you can make the So sq Pl work. But the same things are said elswhere. So I'm sticking it back in the cupboard under the stairs at the back of my brain.

It wasn?t cheating, I wrote this first!!!

Good lord, people with Su sq Pl, Me Sco cnj MC and Sa Cap cnj Asc opp Ma. You see the worst in everyone

Mo also cnj Ma cnj des. I'd be careful if I were you.

Pardon me for stepping in here.

I'm in 1522 at the moment with John de Indagine's instructions on how to do a solar horoscope.

I would like to hear more about this sometime (Both the solar horoscope and your time travels). Now I will quickly exit before I am struck by a flying flower pot.

I consider myself to be a traditional astrologer but I do not discount the outer planets entirely. My favourite personal experience that I like to recount when talking about outer planets is that when Uranus crossed my Ascendant, I ruptured my aorta. It's a bit hard to discount outer planets after that. Uranus is a planet that likes to rupture (think earthquakes) but I wasn't expecting such a literal experience of the transit to my Ascendant.

I have been surprised too at how literal outer planet transits can be. I had a very lengthy Mars-Neptune transit that lasted on and off for two years. I had almost fooled myself into thinking that if I was "aware" enough of the transit I could "sublimate" it somehow or rather...well more the fool me! It was almost like I was ticking off a check-list of all the nasty events listed in one of those old doom-and-gloom predictive astrology books...

Ok, you can make the So sq Pl work. But the same things are said elswhere. So I'm sticking it back in the cupboard under the stairs

Haha. What an extremely appropriate comment. I think Pluto would be very happy there!!