Hello james_m

Re: "the angles will transit around the chart once a day or 365 times a year. why do you say they cycle around the chart one time from birthday to birthday?"

Because it's true.

Today, the whole day, my diurnal Asc is 14? 35' Taurus

Tomorrow, the whole day, my diurnal Asc is 15? 55' Taurus

On my birthday this year, my diurnal Asc IS conjunct my Ascendant. Next year on my birthday, my diurnal Asc WILL BE conjunct my Ascendant. Between those two birthdays it's moving around my Natal chart ONCE in the entire year.

Diurnals are a very easy concept and definitely not a new one. I would recommend Martha Lang Wescott's presentation, though I am sure that various authors have written about them.

Hope this was helpful...maybe you have that "aha moment" and it all makes sense.

James

Hello Ariondys

Thank you for the additional comments, very lucid. Also, thanks for the additional look at various factors of this chart and events.

Re: "and the diurnal is just one of many alternative systems one can try to verify the testimony of the primary directions."

Yes, exactly. The major confirmation for the particular time will normally come from Secondary Progressions, Progressed Sidereal Solar Returns, and Age Harmonics. Since most use Transits, it made sense to also show the Transits and to utilize the diurnals is just a natural choice, to be honest.

Take care

James

Hello james_m

Re: "i know what james(atlantean) has said regarding arriving at the time he did - primary direction data with topocentric primary directions, but atlantean james has not shared that data with us here, but something else..."

Juan had wanted to explore the Primary Directions at events on his own and had asked me which ones were the real "anchors". I provided this information.

As most use Transits, it made sense to show the (diurnal) Transits. The alignments with the diurnal Angles helps show the correctness. ie. it is a minor confirmation, shared because most use Transits and can see the events from the respective Bi-wheels.

Re: "...but i continue to remain skeptical on the work i have seen so far."

Nothing wrong with being skeptical, unless you're skeptical that tomorrow will be a day spelled with a "Y" in it. I have seen many times with tightly observed births that the Event List (and Polaris) have shown directly, through algorithm, the correct time. As I said, to just get to the right minute (let alone second) is a 1/1440 probability. I base my confidence in these methods on three things:

1) Past demonstration of Polaris being able to find verified birth times. (Doing it just twice implies defeating 1/2,073,600 odds. ie. 0.0000482% chance of it happening by luck/coincidence)

2) The continued activation of the rectified charts when new (or out of sample) events are analyzed.

3) Cross-confirmation of those Angles/Cusps through other reliable systems (Secondary Progressions, Progressed Sidereal Solar Returns, Age Harmonics, Lunar Cycles, and Transits).

Take care

James

james,
you have shared a chart for the timing of sibelius' fathers death, along with a transit chart on the outer wheel for the time of the death of his father. i am familiar with what transits are and i understand what transiting angles are.. i do not understand what method one can use that progresses the angles, or specifically the ascendant by 1 degree per day, even if i allow for the minor correction between the 360 degrees of a circle and the approx 365 days in a year. you use the word 'diurnal' to describe this particular technique, but i note all the other positions in the chart on that outer wheel are transit data which is why i concluded the angles were also transiting data off a specific time.. you appear to want to suggest the transiting angles are something else - 'diurnals'. you refer me to martha west langcotts work/presentation for a better understanding of what this 'technique' you are referring to. i am only vaguely familiar with her work and know she uses many minor asteroids along with some of the common uranian techniques i am familiar with 90 degree wheel, midpoints and etc. i am unfamiliar with this technique though.

if as you say, diurnals are an easy concept - moving the ascendant 1 degree per day, starting with the ascendant at the same spot as it is in the natal chart on your birthday - i understand this. however as i haven't worked with this technique before and am unfamiliar with it, i am curious to know how the astro program is able to put up transit data for a specific time which coincides with angles for that specific time, while you suggest these angles are moving at 1 degree per day!!! as both of us know, the ascendant can move about 1 degree every 4 minutes or so.. getting it to move 1 degree per day is presenting another technique which happens to coincide with the transiting angles for that particular time! someone isn't explaining themselves all that well, or just how the program is capable of generating a transit data chart and 'diurnals' just for the angles.

for the sake of going a step further in an attempt to understand how you have presented the idea of 'diurnals' and moving the ascendant 1 degree per day so that the ascendant will line up on the same spot every time one has their birthday, this would imply that the ascendant would progress 1/4 of the way round the chart when the sun was square itself, 1/2 round when the sun was close to opposite itself and 3/4 on the last quarter square to itself..

in the example of sibelius's fathers death - the diurnal ascendant is at 4 cancer 59, approx 80 degrees or days away from the rectified ascendant you've offered of 24 virgo 35.. 80 degrees = approx 80 days.. the fathers death is on july 31 1868.. the number of days from july 31st to dec 8th - the date of sibelius's birth is approx 4 months and 8 or 9 days - approx 130 days, give or take a few.. 80 degrees does not equal 130 days.. even if i was to play or entertain this idea of a day per degree of ascendant motion with a return every birthday, the numbers are not adding up here with the data you've offered.. as a matter of fact, very little adds up!!

Atlantean wrote:Hello james_m

Re: "the angles will transit around the chart once a day or 365 times a year. why do you say they cycle around the chart one time from birthday to birthday?"

Because it's true.

Today, the whole day, my diurnal Asc is 14? 35' Taurus

Tomorrow, the whole day, my diurnal Asc is 15? 55' Taurus

On my birthday this year, my diurnal Asc IS conjunct my Ascendant. Next year on my birthday, my diurnal Asc WILL BE conjunct my Ascendant. Between those two birthdays it's moving around my Natal chart ONCE in the entire year.

Diurnals are a very easy concept and definitely not a new one. I would recommend Martha Lang Wescott's presentation, though I am sure that various authors have written about them.

Hope this was helpful...maybe you have that "aha moment" and it all makes sense.

James

can try to reword how a diurnal chart is made...

1) Diurnal chart, a chart for a given date, based on the natal chart -- based on using the same time of birth as the natal and the same date as the event.

2) Mechanics of the Future, by Wescott:
a "diurnal" is calculated using your natal birth time and pretending you were born on the day and year you wish to examine.

Google is your friend

http://www.astrologysoftware.com/resour ... e.asp?id=8
Article Title: The Diurnal Chart

Hello james_m

Re: "if as you say, diurnals are an easy concept"

As I say? Sorry that you are having difficulty with this technique. It is very basic and supremely easy to understand. Want your diurnal chart for today? Take your natal chart and change it to today's date. Done.

Re: "...moving the ascendant 1 degree per day..."

It's not an artificial direction system. The Angles change as they would have day-to-day based on the moment of your birth. Yes, it will be basically 360? in a year's time, but there is no fixed increment...it expands and contracts throughout the year.
___________________

My Natal:

July 3, 1962
6:16:44 am (CDT)
Mount Vernon, IL
Asc: 18? 31' Cancer
___________________

My diurnal for Today:

May 1, 2013
6:16:44 am (CDT)
Mount Vernon, IL
Asc: 15? 56' Taurus
___________________

My diurnal for Tomorrow:

May 2, 2013
6:16:44 am (CDT)
Mount Vernon, IL
Asc: 17? 15' Taurus
___________________

Between today and tomorrow, the (diurnal) Ascendant moves forward 1? 19'.

The diurnal Asc, MC, Vertex and Moon all appear to be important positions, based on line-ups over a series of events. [Think about the diurnal Moon for a second. It will move approximate 10-13? per day, but the diurnal Moon will be in one exact (zodiacal) position, which represents the whole day.

Hope this helps...

James

Hello Ariondys,

Re: "...a 'diurnal' is calculated using your natal birth time and pretending you were born on the day and year you wish to examine."

This is exactly the concept. (Simply change the date of one's Natal to reflect the DATE under examination.)

Re: "Google is your friend"



Take care

James

okay. thanks guys! the link explained it very well.

ariondys - i sent you a pm the other day - check it out and get back to me if you feel like it.

i thought about this some more. what it means is all the angles are replicated every year on the same date. if you think the angles point to some particular event, the main difference between the years are the primary directions and other predictive tools that are being used, not the data off these 'diurnals'. otherwise every year on july 31st sibelius will have some death like experience connected with his dad - if you believe these 'diurnal' angles make some strong connection to death of the father..

My rectification, based on 30 events is 00.32.52 LMT (=22.55.04 UT) Asc 26Vir54'.
Here are some of the main aspects for 18 events.
P=Primary directions in Topocentric system
S= Secondary directions, using solar-arc MC in Right Ascension for house-directions
PSSR= Progressed of Solar Returns, precession corrected
T= Transits.
In all the systems, converse mode was also used.
Maximum orbs:
For primaries: 11' (or 65 days) for conjunction & opposition, 6' (or 35 days) for all the other aspects
For secondary & PSSR: 11' for all the planets, the progressed or regressed Moon : 30' for conjunction & opposition, 18' for all the other aspects
For transits: 75'
1. death of father 31 July 1868
P: VIII 120 Sun 3'
MC 45 Plu 5'
MC 135 Sat 5'
S: VIII 120 Sun 9'
PSSR: Node 60 Asc 11'
Sat 60 Sun 4'

2. death of mother 29 Dec 1897
P: SN 90 MC 1'
Sat 45 Ven 2'
Nep 90 Sun 1'
T: Node 120 Asc 62'
Ven 180 MC, 90 Desc 25'
Nep 120 Asc 7'
Mars 90 Asc 20'

3. Marriage 10 June 1892
P: NN 60 Mer 2'
Moon 180 V 11'

4. birth of daughter 23 Nov 1894
S: MC 180 Ven 3'
Asc 0 NN 2'
T: NN 0 Desc 59'
PSSR:
Moon 180 MC 20'
Ven 0 V 6'
Mer 60 Asc 11'

5. birth of daughter 20 June 1911
P: V 0 MC 10'
V 60 Plu 4'
MC 0 Plu 9'
T: Jup 90 V 16'

6. birth of daughter 14 Nov 1898
P: Jup 60 V 5'
T: Mars 180 V 14'
Mer 180 MC 40'

7. birth of daughter 12 Jan 1903
P: Moon 120 Ven 0'
PAF 180 Mer 5'
T: Ven 0 Asc 19'

8. birth of daughter 10 Sep 1908
P: Moon 60 Ven 0'
Asc 60 Moon 3'
MC 0 V 6'
Moon 0 Asc 9'
S: V 0 Jup 3'
T: Mer 120 V 14'
Ven 60 V 57'
NN 0 V 20'
PSSR: Moon 0 V 0'
Mer 60 Asc 4'

9. death of daughter 13 Feb 1900
P: V 135 SN 0'
SN 135 Asc 4'
Plu 0 PAF 2'
S: Moon 180 VIII 16'
T: Mars 60 VIII 0'
Nep 0 MC 62'
Ven 180 VIII 13'

10. death of brother 2 July 1922
P: VIII 90 Mars 1'
SN 120 Sat 3'
VIII 120 Sat 4'

11. death of grandson 28 Jan 1941
P: V 0 Nep 3'
Nep 30 MC 5'
T: Nep 0 Asc 32'
Nep 120 MC 10'
SN 60 V 5'

12. premiere of Symphony no 7 24 March 1924
P: III 0 Mer 9'
Ven 90 Jup 4'
S: III 60 Ven 0'
III 0 Asc 10'
T: Ven 180 III 12'
Jup 0 V 18'

13. premiere of Symphony no 1 26 Apr 1899
P: Ven 180 MC 9'

14. death of daughter 3 Jan 1982
P: Plu 0 V 3'
Sat 180 V 10'
S: Asc 0 Mars 11'
T: Nep 180 MC 6'

15. death of daughter 6 July 1978
P: Plu 0 Moon 0'
S: VIII 90 sn 4'
V 0 Nep 5'
Ven 0 VIII 7'
Moon 130 Sat 4'
Moon 90 Nep 18'

16. death of grandmother 3 Nov 1879
P: VIII 150 Sat 0'
VIII 120 Mars 4'
MC 120 Sat 6'
MC 30 Plu 1'
MC 150 Mars 2'
Moon 0 XII 4'
S: MC 120 Sat 4'
T: SN 90 VIII 54'

17. operation May 1908
S: MC 0 Plu 10'
XII 180 Nep 11'
Mars 0 Sat 2'


18. DEATH 20 Sep 1957
S: XII 120 Sat 3'
XII 180 Plu 7'

Hello james_m

Re: "...otherwise every year on july 31st sibelius will have some death like experience connected with his dad..."

Not at all. The thing that has stood out is that there are very often these diurnal line-ups.

Remember that every major event should have astrological correlations to explain it, however, every time these particular correlations happen does NOT mean that particular event happens.

All Smart cars are automobiles, but not all automobiles are Smart cars...

Have fun!

James

isaac and james,

now i might be wrong but it seems to me that if i have learned anything from astrology, it's the importance of the angles over house cusps. i have been given the impression these distinctions are not being made on a 'weight' basis with your rectification work/polaris software results) and that a direction/progression/you name it -are all treated equally.. it is the number of close hits that you are falling back on while stressing the importance of the greater number of events, the greater likelihood of success.. i agree with your thinking on the last comment i have bolded, but i am having difficultly on your rationale for treating houses cusps on an equal par with angles.. one doesn't do this in ordinary astrological analysis, but perhaps an exception could be made for rectification work, especially if the intent is to support one particular 12 house system over another..

on another note - isaac - thanks for posting here. i always enjoy your participation. i was wondering if you had a time for the speculative bombing by israel on damascus sunday morning? all i can get is a rough time of 2am sunday morning and thought you might have something more specific. if so, i would appreciate your input. i have no data on the early friday morning bombing, but any of this data might give me better clarity on an israel or syria chart to work with..thanks!