Skyscript Astrology Forum

Hi Martin,

Apart from Var?hamihira's Brihat Jakata another text linked to the mula dasa by several contemporary Indian astrologers is the Saravali of Kalyan Verma. I have read that Kalyan Verma lived in the 10th century CE which if correct means this text can be dated about four hundred years later than the Var?hamihira's Brihat Jakata and about a century before Sripati wrote his J?takakarmapaddhati (?r?patipaddhati).

http://www.astrojyoti.com/saravalimainpage.htm

In contemporary presentations of the mula dasa there also seems to be comparison of the mula dasa lords from the basic lagna D1 chart with the D60 varga chart. I dont know if this technique is present in the Brihat Jakata or a later development.

Its strange that all the contemporary Jytoshi discussion of the mula dasa seems to completely ignore the discussion of this ancient system in the J?takakarmapaddhati (?r?patipaddhati) as you mentioned earlier.

Incidentally, I note your statement above that the mula dasa predates all nakshatra based dasa systems like the Vimsottari, Yogini , and Kalachakra.

However, I have found an interesting counter view in a footnote in this article by Shyamasundara Dasa.

http://shyamasundaradasa.com/jyotish/re ... /bphs.html

Shyamasundara Dasa states:

Udu Dasa system (based on the nakshatras). Although Varaha Mihira and Kalyana Varma both espouse Mula Dasa rather than Udu Dasa this is not an issue since they confine themselves to only one Dasa system while Parasara gives many.

Also we know that Udu Dasa system is older than Varaha Mihira because Satyacarya, whom Varaha Mihira admired and quoted from extensively, used Vimshottari Mahadasa and Prithuyasasha the son of Varaha Mihira though writing on Mula Dasa also includes a short chapter on Udu dasa in Hora Sara.

However, the Rasi based Dasa systems in BPHS appear to be interpolations from Jaimini system.

I am actually a bit confused by the term Udu dasa as it seems to be used in different ways by Jyotishi writers online. Frequently, it is described as synonymous with the Vimshottari dasa. However, some writers seem to suggest the Udu dasa is a separate Nakshatra based dasa system like the Vimshottari or Yogini. Finally, I have seen Udu dasa referred to as a generic term for any system of Mahadasa based Naksatras such as the Vimsottari and others.

Could someone clarify this point please?

Mark

Mark wrote:Apart from Var?hamihira's Brihat Jakata another text linked to the mula dasa by several contemporary Indian astrologers is the Saravali of Kalyan Verma. I have read that Kalyan Verma lived in the 10th century CE which if correct means this text can be dated about four hundred years later than the Var?hamihira's Brihat Jakata and about a century before Sripati wrote his J?takakarmapaddhati (?r?patipaddhati).

Pingree dates Kaly??avarman, or rather, the S?r?val?, to c. 800.

In contemporary presentations of the mula dasa there also seems to be comparison of the mula dasa lords from the basic lagna D1 chart with the D60 varga chart. I dont know if this technique is present in the Brihat Jakata or a later development.

Its strange that all the contemporary Jytoshi discussion of the mula dasa seems to completely ignore the discussion of this ancient system in the J?takakarmapaddhati (?r?patipaddhati) as you mentioned earlier.

I believe most current discussions of the technique are based on the opinions of Sanjay Rath.

Incidentally, I note your statement above that the mula dasa predates all nakshatra based dasa systems like the Vimsottari, Yogini , and Kalachakra.

Yes. I could have put it more cautiously and said that the earliest preserved texts describing m?la-da?? predate the earliest preserved texts describing the u?u-da??s (see below). One is historical shorthand for the other.

However, I have found an interesting counter view in a footnote in this article by Shyamasundara Dasa.

Yes -- see my comments on Shyamasundara in the parallel thread on BPHS. His arguments presuppose that no Indian astrology texts are pseudepigraphous; in other words, if a text is ascribed to the sage Satya, it must really be written by Satya. This will only convince the true believers.

I am actually a bit confused by the term Udu dasa as it seems to be used in different ways by Jyotishi writers online. Frequently, it is described as synonymous with the Vimshottari dasa. However, some writers seem to suggest the Udu dasa is a separate Nakshatra based dasa system like the Vimshottari or Yogini. Finally, I have seen Udu dasa referred to as a generic term for any system of Mahadasa based Naksatras such as the Vimsottari and others.

Could someone clarify this point please?

U?u (not a very Indo-European-sounding word, incidentally) and nak?atra both mean 'star', so properly, u?u-da?? is any da?? system based on the stars or nak?atras; but as Vi??ottar? is the most common of these, u?u-da?? is sometimes used as a synonym of Vi??ottar?.

Martin Gansten wrote:

Pingree dates Kaly??avarman, or rather, the S?r?val?, to c. 800.

Thanks Martin. You have probably told me this before but which specific article(s) from David Pingree are you deriving this information about Jyotish from?

Martin Gansten wrote:

Yes -- see my comments on Shyamasundara in the parallel thread on BPHS. His arguments presuppose that no Indian astrology texts are pseudepigraphous; in other words, if a text is ascribed to the sage Satya, it must really be written by Satya. This will only convince the true believers.

Maybe he does have that belief regarding an ancient core text lost to us. However, he freely acknowledges the current version of the BHPS must have numerous interpolations and cannot all be traced back in this way.

Although as Pankajdubey points out this is a factor in several texts associated with ancient India such as the Ved??ga Jyoti?a and Surya Siddhanta

Martin Gansten wrote:

U?u (not a very Indo-European-sounding word, incidentally) and nak?atra both mean 'star', so properly, u?u-da?? is any da?? system based on the stars or nak?atras; but as Vi??ottar? is the most common of these, u?u-da?? is sometimes used as a synonym of Vi??ottar?.

Thank you! I have put together a personal list of Jyotish terminology but I always seem to be hitting some new Sanskrit term that baffles me. It seems like half the struggle in understanding Jyotish is comprehending the Sanskrit words left untranslated as much as the core astrological concepts themselves.

I don?t suppose anyone has ever compiled a Sanskrit-English dictionary of Jyotish astrological terms have they? I think I would be the first buyer!

Mark

Mark wrote: .......
Thank you! I have put together a personal list of Jyotish terminology but I always seem to be hitting some new Sanskrit term that baffles me. It seems like half the struggle in understanding Jyotish is comprehending the Sanskrit words left untranslated as much as the core astrological concepts themselves.

I don?t suppose anyone has ever compiled a Sanskrit-English dictionary of Jyotish astrological terms have they? I think I would be the first buyer!

Mark

save the money.
Try here
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/apte/

eg: udu

http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/p ... splay=utf8

1. ???? u?u? : (page 41)
= ??? 1 P. (????, ????, ?????, ???????, ????) 1 To go.-2 To strike or knock down.
???? u?u????? f., ??? n. [???-?? ???] 1 A lunar mansion; a star; ???????????????????????????? R.16.65.-2 Water (said to be n. only).-Comp.-??????? The moon. ??? The constellation

much more forgiving one:



http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?scri ... rection=AU

PD

Mark wrote:Thanks Martin. You have probably told me this before but which specific article(s) from David Pingree are you deriving this information about Jyotish from?

Not from an article, but from his 1981 book Jyoti???stra: astral and mathematical literature, published in the History of Indian Literature series (Harrassowitz).

Maybe he does have that belief regarding an ancient core text lost to us. However, he freely acknowledges the current version of the BHPS must have numerous interpolations and cannot all be traced back in this way.

I was referring to this statement of his:

Also we know that Udu Dasa system is older than Varaha Mihira because Satyacarya, whom Varaha Mihira admired and quoted from extensively, used Vimshottari Mahadasa and Prithuyasasha the son of Varaha Mihira though writing on Mula Dasa also includes a short chapter on Udu dasa in Hora Sara.

Var?hamihira does quote (lost texts by) Satya, but not on the Vi??ottar? system; so Shyamasundara's only reason to connect Satya with that system is that he takes the attribution of other, later texts to Satya at face value. The attribution of the Hor?s?ra to P?thuya?as (sic -- not P?thuyasa?a) is similarly dubious.

I don?t suppose anyone has ever compiled a Sanskrit-English dictionary of Jyotish astrological terms have they? I think I would be the first buyer!

I do sympathize, but there are no specialized dictionaries/glossaries that I'm aware of. Some astrological authors include glossaries in their books; but the selection, explanations and orthography may vary a good deal.

Mark wrote:

I don?t suppose anyone has ever compiled a Sanskrit-English dictionary of Jyotish astrological terms have they? I think I would be the first buyer!

For those of us who aren't familiar with Sanskrit, I've generally found any word whose meaning I needed to know in the 20 page "Hindu Astrology Terminology" section in the back of Richard Houck's The Astrology of Death. (Groundswell Press, 1994) The 20 pages are in a small font double column arrangement. This little "dictionary" has been my saviour many times over the years. There are approximately 1700 entries which cover any term we'll find in the English translations of Indian astrological texts. I've even had to look up such basic terms as "jataka." (judgement of a nativity)

Houck's book is still available from Amazon sellers here in the U.S.

J.N Bhasin has one here.
The english terms are explained in hindi and sanskrit tern spelled in english and explained both in Hindi and English.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/125815829/505 ... -Astrology

PD

pankajdubey wrote:J.N Bhasin has one here.

Though with explanations such as A method of timing events for the entry Udu Dasa, it may not be the source of illumination that Mark was looking for. Houck is no better here: Alternate method of timing events.

Martin Gansten wrote: Though with explanations such as A method of timing events for the entry Udu Dasa, it may not be the source of illumination that Mark was looking for. Houck is no better here: Alternate method of timing events.

All right, Martin, your next project: The Master Encyclopedia of Indian Astrology including full and complete definitions of all terms and concepts from available texts

Actually, this isn't a bad idea! Unfortunately such a project requires something no one has: TIME

Martin Gansten wrote:

pankajdubey wrote:J.N Bhasin has one here.

Though with explanations such as A method of timing events for the entry Udu Dasa, it may not be the source of illumination that Mark was looking for. Houck is no better here: Alternate method of timing events.

In that case, Mark should start here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmi_script

A lot of Jain literature is in Tamil and Buddist one in Pali script.

On a Mac these dictionaries can be made a part of inbuilt mac dictionary.
Ajit Krishnan's dictionary files converted for Mac and online Digital dictionaries of South Asia.

http://sanskritdocuments.org/dict/

The Phoenician dictionary is here:

http://www.canaanite.org/dictionary/ind ... index&d=18

PD

Call me an idealist, but I think there may be a middle way between starting with the Brahmi script and providing non-explanatory explanations like 'a method of timing events'...