Morpheus stated:

I had been told by my Teacher (Guru) that rules of Horary can not be applied to Natal Astrology. The natal system which was taught to me treats Combustion, Retrogradation, Cadency and angularity quite different from Horary Astrology.

Well Lilly in CA teaches entirely different. And I'm Not saying Lilly was Mr. Know It All, because he borrowed from many, even if he misunderstood a few authors on some points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bae0TZL4fRU

My point is as we diligently study Lilly and the Ancients he gleaned wisdom from, we have to try to understand why Lilly did what he did. And that can possibly only be done by studying every author Lilly studied. But Why stop there? Because many of the texts are now surfacing that perhaps Lilly never had a chance to study and we have that oppritunity now!

James_M stated:

.....- i don't think you can! some will think they know something based on some bit of information (slowness of moon, retrograde planets, etc.etc. - fill in the blank,) but when it is put in context with all the other factors that can to be taken into account, it is impossible to know the significance of these isolated factors.. instead many will work with ''point systems'' to give them an answer! it's so much simpler even if the answer is wrong!

Lilly's point system is Not the only method he inmprovised but there has to be a reasoning behind his usage of such found on page 115 in CA.

I wonder if any here know who he borrowed it from or how many before him utilized such a concept?

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know[/quote]

There are many older astrologers who taught that when the Moon is slow its behaviour is like that of a retrograde planet; for example Bonatti, III.4.

Deb stated:

There are many older astrologers who taught that when the Moon is slow its behaviour is like that of a retrograde planet; for example Bonatti, III.4.

Thanks Deb, I just knew that this concept that Lilly taught couldn't be an invention or his own discovery.

And that is why I'm convinced to totally understand Lilly we will have to adequately digest all the authors he studied in order to understand why Lilly did as he exhibits in CA.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

I would like to humbly thank the following participants for their knowledge and time in a great thread.

Zoidsoft(Curtis)

james_m

Johannes Susato

Morpheus

Deborah Holding

Oh how interesting! I did not know that Luna could be treated as retrograde when she was slow of motion. That does make a certain amount of sense, although sometimes I do think we need to be a bit cautious about approaching things in too formulaic of a manner, particularly when judging Nativity charts.

I think that it makes good sense to treat horaries and electional charts a bit differently than Nativities. Actually, I think we need to treat horaries and electionals differently from each other as well.

With a Nativity chart, you are looking at a chart for a person's entire life. People have Free Will, which means that they have choices as to how they express their charts. Difficult or debilitated planets in a chart certainly make the expression of the planetary principles more difficult, but I think that part of the role of a good astrologer is to help people work with their charts, even the difficult parts of the chart.

I think that for this reason, I would be reluctant to treat a slow of motion Luna as if it were retrograde in a Nativity. When judging Nativity charts, I tend to be more qualitative than quantitative. I would be very detailed in looking at every debility and dignity separately. I tend not to really use "point systems" with Nativities, unless I am calculating an Almuten, or other such point in a chart.

In a horary, one is generally looking at a chart for the answer to a specific question. I understand that Mr. Lilly did use horaries in place of nativity charts for clients who did not have birth information. I have not tried that, so I do not know how I feel about that or how that would work. On the other hand, mostly with a horary, one is really only looking at a particular question or a specific answer. For this reason, I think that formulas make a lot more sense in this context. We are trying to come up with a specific answer in order to help someone make a decision, so one needs to be a lot more definite in approach. In this case, treating a slow of motion Luna as if she were retrograde makes more sense.

On the other hand, Luna plays *such* an important role with horaries. Does anyone know if the treatment of Luna as retrograde when slow of motion is limited to when she is the signifactor of the question, or if that usage is general, for all the ways Luna is used in horary.

I am not so sure about a formulaic approach for electionals. It seems to me that electionals are somewhat in between Nativities and horaries in this regard. On the other hand I can see the wisdom of treating a slow of motion Luna as retrograde in an Electional. I would imagine that whether this was good or bad would depend on what one was trying to do. If one wanted an event to be something *very* lasting, I suppose a slow of motion Luna in a fixed sign might do the trick, although, it may be something unpleasant that lasts.

Anyways, thank you for your indulgence with my bit of rambling. This is quite interesting, though.