Last Testimony
Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:40 pm
I deleted this original post because it was unintentionally rude to Ken as a person, whom I accidentally offended initially, and it took me some revision and thinking as to what I want to leave in its place as a testimony to the Indian dating argument. I have collected excerpts and links that I have posted in various parts of the forum previously.
What always happens at this forum and likely anywhere, is an example of how wonderful multiculturalism is.
I do not think this history must have an either the vedas date to 3000 years ago or 12000 years ago proposition, nevermind the traditional Hindu perspective either. Let us ponder this for a bit, why is all history only dated to several thousand years ago? Were there no humans on this planet until 3000-4000 BCE? Did all humans invent their cultural teachings only a few thousand years ago and before that there was only void and empty minded peoples? The reason history is portrayed this way has a few explanations, one of which is to destroy other people's roots, but it is a symptom also of the thinking common in Europe several hundred years ago that the world was invented around 4000 BCE. This is nowadays considered rubbish natural history understanding, but the constraints it put into place still affect the dating of the vedas and nakshtras discussions! Did paleolithic peoples not have any cultural teachings or ideas passed down to their descendants? Of course they did, but this is not accepted in scholarly circles because of the mind-control still in effect which goes unrecognized...
When Westerners first looked at the ages and yugas and cycles in Indian thought, they could not believe it. Nowadays those vast time scales look normal... But this narrowmindedness still affects the dating discussions like this one...
I do not believe the option that either one is a rational scholar or a rabid nationalist in regards to this argument, neither do I believe nationalism=evil, nor is this belief evil according to the UN mandate on Indigenous People's Rights: to their own identity and culture and history (even if some people believe other people's history is myth). All peoples are indigenous peoples, therefore all peoples have a right to their own worldview according to the UN mandate on the Human Rights. Therefore, hindus have a right to their own history of the vedas.
The reason I call Western versions of Indian history a myth is because this is what contemporary Western academics call everyone else's history (including oftentimes their own ancestor's history).
When I referred to the "fraudulent foundation" of Western versions of Indian history I did not mean it was necessarily motivated by malintent on everyone's part, only that zero evidence was used to establish the vedic period and that period has not moved since then, but when evidence is brought up suggesting a large error thet evidence is reviled as 'not evidence' or motivated by evil.
I would encourage people to read the Indian academic literature insofar as their own 'history of science', and Indian archeology, from Indian perspectives. There are discrepancies. Nevermind the traditional teachings.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1998BASI...26...61A
http://insaindia.org/comijhs2.php
There are cities in India dated older than the Harappa dating, according to Indian archeologists, but even if there were not, any paleontologist knows that lack of evidence does not prove something in this regards.
Here is a caricature of the usual teaching that is taught in Western Academia:
The Indians were crawling around on their hands and knees and all of a sudden stood up and built Harrapa and Mohenjo-daro (nevermind Mehrgarh). Then the Indians sort of did nothing for 2000 years and all of a sudden whipped out the vedas in 1000 BCE. Even the western academia acknowledges cities older than the oldest Hindu literature. This is a suspicious history.
"Among all of these the most influential on my career was Otto Neugebauer, who showed me how [to] interpret correctly ancient astronomical texts and tables in various ancient languages and to demonstrate the dependence of one culture?s mathematical models and parameters on another?s." - David Pingree
Study very carefully the background and lifestory of this mentor of Pingree who was one of the primary persons responsible for creating the myth that I will give a caricature of: that all humans were crawling around on their hands and knees until they were gifted with civilization from the people from Mesopotamia. The irony is that the ethnocentrism was on the side of Pingree's mentor and the daters of the vedas in the West, yet when Indians challenge this history version, then it is Indians who are falsely accused. When everyone else's history is destroyed, e.g. the burning of Alexandria, or the burning of the libraries in India by Muslims, or the forced conversion of Europe one tribe at a time, then it certainly does start to look like Mesopotamia was the only source...The Book of Deuteronomy (KJV translation is more honest) is a synopsis of what has happened in the West these last thousands of years.
The so-called Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy nor Roman nor an Empire, said Voltaire, and it is doubtful that it actually ended since the memes and power centres morphed to a continuation of the old in new places.
The rg veda contains sexagesimal maths and this veda also has identical deities as found among indigenous European tribes before they were secretly murdered and oppressed by the so-called Holy Roman Empire, therefore the vedic deities go back to before the split when the indigenous Europeans traveled to and were found in Europe, i.e., at the latest, the upper Paleolithic, since these things had to have been in existence before the split of the Indo-European tribes.
I will present a few excerpts from a text titled: Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy by mathematician Richard L. Thompson, to demonstrate what happens when we actually begin to investigate the work of Western historians of science, rather than just defer to them as "scholars" (i.e. modern priests) and regurgitate their conclusions and cite references to their work as though it were inviolable scripture...
The purpose of this presentation is to demonstrate how lies become truth in Western history, this is not unique to the history of science either...
"Nonetheless, even though our knowledge of the history of ancient astronomy is extremely incomplete, there are scholars who believe that they can uncover important parts of this history by speculative reconstruction. One example of this is a paper entitled 'The Recovery of Early Greek Astronomy from India,' by David Pingree (PG). In order to indicate the complexities and pitfalls of the speculative process, we will examine the key argument of this paper in detail. This will involve the use of a number of technical astronomical terms, but we will explain these as we go along. Our method will be to first present Pingree's theory, and then give his reasons for accepting this theory as true. Then step by step we will show the fallacies in his reasoning and present an alternative theory that is in better agreement with the facts (Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy by Richard L. Thompson).
"Now, how does Pingree know that this is what Aryabhata did some 1,400 years ago? His key argument is that if we use Ptolemaic calculations to reproduce Aryabhata's supposed steps, then we obtain Aryabhata's parameters for mean planetary motions almost exactly. Aryabhata's parameters, listed under R in Table A2.1, are in the hundreds of thousands and millions. Column (1) of this table lists the differences between Aryabhata's parameters and these parameters as reconstructed by Pingree. For example, for Jupiter, Aryabhata's rate is 364,224 revolutions per yuga cycle, and Pingree's reconstruction is larger than this by 4. Since these differences are very small, it is hard to imagine how Aryabhata could have arrived at his parameters without following the scenario that Pingree proposes. This makes it seem that Pingree's conclusion concerning Aryabhata is indisputable, and equally so his contention that nearly every aspect of Indian astronomy was imported from Greek sources without acknowledgement (PG, pp. 114-15).
An argument such as Pingree's has a great impact on the academic world. It tends to be immediately convincing to scholars, and it becomes established as a foundation stone in an imposing school of thought that cannot be easily challenged by nonprofessionals. As a result, scholars in other fields (such as comparative religion and history) accept the conclusions of such a school as a matter of course, and modify their own views in accordance with it...
...However, one can indeed find other ways by which Aryabhata could have arrived at his parameters...
...most of the significant digits in these parameters come from the Brahmapaksa parameters, which Aryabhata acknowledges as source material...
...As we shall see, this fine tuning can be accounted for in ways other than the one advocated by Pingree. To do this, it is first necessary to examine Pingree's argument more closely" (Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy by Richard L. Thompson).
"After we have checked our Ptolemaic calculations at the Kali-yuga starting date, the next step is to perform these calculations for noon of March 21, A.D. 499, the date of Aryabhata's alleged calculations. There are 454,759 days from Ptolemy's epoch to this date. If we compute the Ptolemaic mean positions for this date, a number of interesting points emerge. First of all, the Ptolemaic mean longitudes do not at all agree with Pingree's figures, as given in his Table 2 (PG, p. 116). This can be seen by comparing the rightmost and leftmost columns of Table A2.2." (Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy by Richard L. Thompson).
"In his Table 1, Pingree lists distances from Zeta Piscium under the heading "Distance from Zeta Piscium," and mean longitudes under lambda, the Greek letter symbolizing these quantities (PG, p. 115). Yet in his table 2, he lists quantities under lambda that are really distances from Zeta Piscium, and he refers to these quantities as mean longitudes. We have not been able to account for this discrepancy in nomenclature.
We have also not been able to account for the discrepancies between the middle and rightmost columns of A2.2, for it would seem that calculations for 454,759 days after Ptolemy's epoch should be even more precise than calculations for 860,172.25 days before that epoch. (We note that Pingree's Ptolemaic calculations apparently have not been corrected for the time difference between Ptolemy's city of Alexandria and Aryabhata's city of Ujjain; this possible correction does not account for the discrepancy.)...
...For Venus and Mercury the errors in Pingree's reconstruction of Aryabhata's parameters turn out to be worse than those reported by Pingree in his paper. (Compare columns 1 and 2 of Table A2.1.) This indicates errors on Pingree's part, but it might be argued that it does not detract very badly from his hypothesis. We therefore ask, Is there some reasonable way of reconstructing Aryabhata's parameters that produce smaller errors for all of the planets than Pingree's method? The answer is yes. To explain this, we must turn to a discussion of the mean positions of the planets according to modern astronomy...
...Let us suppose that Aryabhata did this, and that he then computed his parameters using his observed longitudes rather than longitudes copied from a Greek table. This leads to a reconstruction of his parameters based on modern calculation of the differences between mean longitudes and the sun's mean longitude. The longitudes and resulting parameters for this reconstruction are listed in the last two columns of Table A2.3, and the errors in this reconstruction are listed in column (5) of Table A2.1. As we can see, these errors are zero, except for Mercury, where the error is equal to that in Pingree's reported reconstruction (see columns (1) and (2)). Thus, the hypothesis of observation yields better results than the hypothesis of copying from Greek tables" (Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy by Richard L. Thompson).
"These statements certainly convey the impression that the Indian sine table was directly obtained from a related trigonometrical table used by the Greek astronomer Hipparchus. However, what do we find if we actually examine the paper by G.J. Toomer that these authorities are citing? Let us briefly consider this.
The first thing that we learn from this paper is that there are no surviving Greek documents containing Hipparchus' chord table, even in a fragmentary form. Indeed, 'there is no explicit evidence about the nature of Hipparchus' chord table,' and no real proof that such a table ever existed (TM1, p. 6). It is important to note that only one work of Hipparchus' had survived - a commentary on the stars - and this does not present his mathematical methods. As we have already noted, this is typical of the state of our knowledge of pre-Ptolemaic Greek astronomy...
...By this reasoning Toomer maintains that "the nature of Hipparchus' chord table is conclusively established" (TMI, p. 16). Since the table has the structure of an Indian sine table, it follows that Indian trigonometry must have been derived from the Greeks. The idea that Greeks may have been influenced by Indian developments is never even suggested by modern Western historians of science. But in this case, of course, we have no evidence for influence either way, since the connection between Hipparchus' two numbers and the Indian sine table is purely speculative" (Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy by Richard L. Thompson).
"Since the chord table of Hipparchus has not survived (if it ever existed), it is remarkable that such slender evidence can be offered as the basis for 'inevitable' conclusions about it. Yet, as we have seen, such speculative reconstructions are not unusual in the field of the history of science. Here we will give one more example. This is provided by the mathematician B.L. van der Waerden, who traces back Hipparchus' trigonometry to the Greek mathematician Appolonius of Perge...
...One should note here that van der Waerden does not cite a reference giving Appolonius' estimate of [greek math pi symbol], and he also gives no reference that specifically attributes studies of trigonometry to Appolonius. Thus we do not know what Apollonius's estimate of [greek pi math symbol] was, nor do we know whether he actually knew any trigonometry" (Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy by Richard L. Thompson).
"We have discussed the arguments of Pingree, Toomer, and van der Waerden in detail to show the kind of foundations that underlie scholarly conclusions about the origins of Indian astronomy. The main characteristic of these foundations is that they are composed almost entirely of unsupported assumptions, biased interpretations, and imaginary reconstructions. It is unfortunate, however, that after many scholars have presented arguments of this type in learned treatises, the arguments accumulate to produce an imposing stratified deposit of apparently indisputable authority. In this way, supposedly solid facts are established by the fossilization of fanciful speculations whose original direction was determined by scholarly prejudice. Ultimately, these facts are presented in elementary texts and popular books, and accepted on faith by innocent people" (Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy by Richard L. Thompson).
In the work of B.G. Tilak, it is found that he was informing Western Indologists of Sanskrit words found in Mesopotamia, and yet those Western scholars never informed the general public of this, because they had ulterior motives to present everything as a one-sided transmission coming out of Mesopotamia. Therefore, some Western scholars can be said to be liars by omission.
Indians developed various maths and discovered various things about the universe before the Western dating of these things, and Western history of science still to this day does not include the Indian discoveries in their fradulent so-called history of science.
See this thread for example:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7368
Also, insofar as the allegations the Indians borrowed 12 house or sign astrology from Mesopotamians via Hellenists, contemplate the 12 adityas, for example:
See 8:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbr/sbe44/sbe44036.htm
See 9:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbr/sbe12/sbe1246.htm
So, we an association of the Adityas as a division of the year and the day and the sky.
Also, see 4.5.1-3:
http://www.safarmer.com/Indo-Eurasian/O ... miniya.pdf
Also, see 4.10.10:
http://www.safarmer.com/Indo-Eurasian/O ... miniya.pdf
Further original source parallels can be found in a text titled: Studies on Rigvedic Deities: Astronomical and Meteorological by Ekendranath Ghosh.
Also, see these articles:
http://www.vedicsociety.org/articles.php?authors_id=1
"Some scholars have claimed that the Babylonians invented the zodiac of 360 degrees around 700 BCE, perhaps even earlier. Many claim that India received the knowledge of the zodiac from Babylonia or even later from Greece. However, as old as the Rig Veda, the oldest Vedic text, there are clear references to a chakra or wheel of 360 spokes placed in the sky. The number 360 and its related numbers like 12, 24, 36, 48, 60, 72, 108, 432 and 720 occur commonly in Vedic symbolism. It is in the hymns of the great Rishi Dirghatamas (RV I.140 ? 164) that we have the clearest such references." This excerpt from:
http://www.vedicsociety.org/vedic-origi ... 0o91kj6e44
"To quote from David Pingree?s "History of mathematical astronomy in India," in the Dictionary of Scientific Biography, C.S. Gillespie (ed.), pp. 533-633, Charles Scribners, New York, 1981, page 534: "In the case of the priority of the Rgveda to the Brahmanas, it is not always clear that the views expressed in the latter developed historically after the composition of the former. All texts that can reasonably be dated before ca. 500 BC are here considered to represent essentially a single body of more or less uniform material." The point of his statement is to try to get such Rig Veda references as those of Dirghatamas later than the Brahmana texts as both reflect a similar sophisticated astronomy, which is necessary to make it later than the Babylonian references and a product of a Babylonian influence as he proposes. This requires reducing all the layers of Vedic literature to a more or less uniform mass at a very late date, which is contrary to almost every view of the text." This excerpt also from the above link and below link:
http://www.vedicsociety.org/vedic-origi ... 0o91kj6e44
Pingree tried to attribute the veda itself as a product of Mesopotamians...
At the following link there is an online text titled: Astronomical dating of events from Indian history
http://www.ancientindianastrology.com/cmsa/
From the above stated online text at that site:
"Description of Event Dating
Sri Krishna, on his final peace mission, set out for Hastinapura, when the moon was at the asterism Revati. September 26, 3067 BCE
Krishna arrived in Hastinapura when the moon was at the asterism Bharani. September 28,3067
The lunar eclipse September 29, 3067 BCE
The solar eclipse at Jyestha October 14, 3067 B.C.
The Great Bharata War November 22, 3067 BCE
Balarama sits out the war and sets out for pilgrimage along the Sarasvati November 1, 3067 B.C.
Balarama returns from his pilgrimage, on the last day of the war Dec 12, 3067 BCE
The winter solstice occurred on January 13, 3066 BCE
Bhishma?s expiry January 16, 3066 BCE
Birth and nirvana of Sri Krishna (we have used 81 years as his lifespan but some traditions put his lifespan as 197 years) with a birthdate of July 21,3228 BCE 3112 BCE to 3031 BCE
The comet Mahaghora appeared at the asterism Pushya October ,3066 BCE
Birth and Nirvana of Lord Buddha April 9, 1887 to March 27,1807 BCE
Birth and Nirvana of Adi Sankara April 5, 509 BCE
Beginning of the Vikrama Era (Sukla pratipada) March 14 , 57 BCE
Salivahana Saka 78 CE"
"Most countries in Central Asia, particularly those with their names ending with ?stan? or ?istan?, such as ? Balochistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Turkistan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, and Kazakhstan ? could be part of Greater India in ancient times. ?Sthan/stan? is a Sanskrit word, meaning ?place?. When drawing a line around these istan countries, beginning at Kazakhstan, in the extreme northwest, and ending at Pakistan, they make a block connecting with India. These countries were snatched away one by one by Muslim tribes. Last being Pakistan."
?He who has money, lives long: he who has authority, can do no wrong: he who has might, establishes right. Such is history?. - Gottfried Benn.
"The present narration of [Indian] history especially in the English language is not accurate and is fundamentally flawed both chronologically and as to the nature of the content . There should be no question in anybody?s mind that the present narrative of our history as taught to our children is the legacy of the British . I would be astonished if anybody were
to contradict me on this assumption. This is therefore not an opinion but a fact.."
"The First Boden Professor of Sanskrit in Oxford University was H.H. Wilson. Then it was Monier Williams and he was followed by Max M?ller. Personal letters of Mr Max M?ller gives a true picture of the writer's inner mind. Such letters are very helpful in estimating his real nature and character. In a letter to his wife in 1886 A.D. Max M?ller wrote:
This edition of mine and the translation of the Veda will hereafter tell to a great extent on the fate of India ... It is the root of their religion and to show them what the root is, I feel sure, is the only way of uprooting all that has sprung from it during the last three thousand years."
In a letter on 16th December 1868 A.D he writes to Duke of Argyll, the Minister for India:
'The ancient religion of India is doomed and if Christianity does not step in, whose fault will it be?'
You can understand how biased was colonial scholarship of Sanskrit learning. Max M?ller's bias is now an open secret. The strange factor is that Max M?ller does not understand simple Sanskrit and he cannot write and translate. Then what about his Vedic knowledge?"
"Indian astronomy is claimed to be borrowed from the Greeks, but the Vedanga Jyotisha cannot be dated later than the 14th century BC. The name itself, Vedanga, indicates it is later than the Vedas, so the astronomical references in the Vedas must be older. In addition, Harappan archaeology of the third millennium BC belongs
astronomically to the ?Krittika period? (vernal equinox in Krittika or the Pleiades cluster in Taurus), which is mentioned in the later Vedic literature. This places the Harappan civilization later than the Rigveda and not before it as claimed by historians."
"Migrations: The major migration or invasion?the famous or infamous Aryan invasion?is supposed to have taken place after 2000 BC, but available genetic evidence shows that the people of India have lived where they are for tens of thousands of years, perhaps as long as 50,000 years or more."
"It is my firm conviction that the current history, as revised by the colonial overlord, and taught to our [Indian] children worldwide does not meet the minimum standards of any episteme. I do not know of any civilization or nation that lets its history be hijacked by those who have a minimum accountability to ensure its veracity and in fact has an agenda that is very cavalier and nonchalant, if not hostile to our traditional heritage. Till the advent of independence we had an excuse that we were held on a short leash by the colonial overlord, but what is the excuse today?"
Note: I personally know of many groups of people who have had their roots and history hijacked and destroyed. We could start looking right here at home - look at the European university programs which teach "European" religion and include Christianity.
Isn't the Aesir-Vanir war the same as the stories of the asura-deva wars?
Are not Arvak and Alsvin, the horses connected with the Sun in the Norse religion, the very same Ashvini twins connected with horses and the Sun in the Vedic tradition and which the Ashwini nakshatra is named after?
"These scholars have discounted the fact that two of the greatest epics of
the world, Ramayana and Mahabharata are traditionally regarded as itihasa s, i.e., historic texts and that there are in addition, a host of supporting texts in the form of Puranas. Ignoring the fact that Bharata has its own sense of history and the purpose of history, which differs
from their own concept of history, the scholars have systematically misrepresented the chronology of Bharata"
"Krshna?s mission for peace is so important that astronomical events in reference to that mission
are recorded.
(i) Krshna leaves for Hastinapura in the maitri muhurta in the month of Kartika on the day of Revati nakshatra.
(ii) On the way he halts at a place called Vrkasthala and reaches Hastinapura on the day of Bharani nakshatra
(iii) The meetings and discussions for peace go on till the day of Pushya nakshatra, when Duryodhana rejects all offers of peace. War becomes imminent.
(iv) Krshna leaves Hastinapura on the day of Uttara Phalguni. Karna
accompanies him in his chariot and has a long conversation with him.
(v) During the conversation Karna describes some omens he has seen that indicate a great harm to the Kuru family which include the following: shani is afflicting Rohini, angaraka has performed a retrograde motion before reaching Jyeshtha and is prograde again having past Anuradha, the moon had lost all its luster on the full moon of Kartika and a solar eclipse would appear to take place next new moon day.
(vi) At the end of the conversation, Krshna sends a message to Bhishma and Drona through Karna that seven days from that day there is going to be an Amavasya at Jyeshtha and that war rituals be started on that day. This must be the Amavasya that Karna refers to as the eclipse day."
"Even Bhagavata Purana acknowledges that although Kaliyuga had already started, because of the presence of Krshna, Kali?s effect had been
controlled. The full power of Kali became effective only with the departure of Krshna...
Thus there is no conflict with the war occurring in 3067 BCE and the
reckoning of Kaliyuga from 3102 BCE."
"One consequence of the mix up of the names of Ashokaditya of the Guptas with Ashoka of the Mauryas is the misdating of Buddha. According to Puranic evidence, there had expired 1500 years after Pariksit, when Mahapadmananda was coronated. Between Pariksit and the Nandas, there were three royal dynasties, Brhadratha, Pradyota and Sisunaga families. The Nandas who ruled Magadha for 100 years, were followed by Mauryas, Sunga, Kanva and Andhras. Candragupta founded the Mauryan dynasty with the help of Canakya. His son was Bimbisara and grandson was Ashokavardhana. The Maurya- s ruled for a total of 316 years and
were replaced by the sunga-s. The Kanva-s who succeeded the Sunga-s were themselves supplanted by the Andhra-s, who ruled for a total of 506 years. Then followed the reign of srigupta-s for a period of 245 years. This age has been termed the ?Golden Age? in the history of
Bharata. It is Samudragupta of the srigupta dynasty who was known as ?Ashokaditya Priyadarsin? The ?Inscriptions of Ashoka? belong to this Gupta emperor and not to Ashoka Maurya , who came to power after 218 years after Buddha.
Buddha was the son of King Suddhodana who was the 23rd king of the Ikshvaku dynasty and Puranic-records point to 1807 BCE as the date of attaining nirvana by Buddha. Just as in the case of Krshna, it appears that his date of birth is calculated after determining the date of parinirvana (final departure). Buddha?s nirvana Kota Venkatachelam has determined that Buddha?s nirvana occurred on the vaishakha Purnima, on March 27, 1807 BCE. Simulations show that astronomically this is indeed the situation as shown in Figure 16. Many other scholars also agree as to the date of Buddha?s nirvana."
"According to it shankara was born in the year Nandana of Kaliyuga
2593 (509 BCE) in the month of vishakha...The Figure 21 shows a star map for April 5, 509 BCE and it is easily seen that tithi, lagna, nakshatra and the positions of the planets are exactly as described in the horoscope."
"The Western historians have tried to identify Kanishka era with 78 CE in their attempt to deny historicity of the... but based on the list from Rajataraangini, Kanishka?s date would be 1298 BCE."
The details of the arguments for these assertions can be found in the above-mentioned online text, which I will state the title here again: Astronomical dating of events from Indian history from the following website:
http://www.ancientindianastrology.com/cmsa/
Max M?ller was a hired agent for the British East India Company, to help subjugate the Indian, just as the Europeans were subjugated some centuries or millenium prior.
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/recent_res ... _river.htm
Here is another example of the distortions of Indian history:
"As regards the date of [Varaha Mihira's] birth, it is a great pity that such great writers as Sir William Hunter, Dr. Bhular, H. Kern, Colebrooke, Bentley, Wilford, Wilson, Cunningham, Weber, Lassen, Maxmuller, Hall, San Julien, Reinauld and other Orientalists have fallen into the greatest blunder in determining his age while Varaha Mihira himself says in his Brihat Samhita Chapter 13 verses 3 and 4 thus:
Aseen makhasu munayaha
Sasathi prithvim
Yudhistaray nrupathau
Shadvika panchadviyuta
Sake tasyaragnasya
N. Chidambara Iyer a fairly good astronomer and mathematician who has translated Brihat Samhita and Brihat Jataka some 55 years ago thus translates this stanza: 'During the reign of Yudhistira 2,526 years before the commencement of Vikrama Saka the Seven Rishis were at the constellation of Magha or Regulus. The rishis take a period of 100 years to go over each of the twenty-seven asterisms rising in the North East. The rishis are Marichi, Vasishta, Angirasa, Atri, Pulastya, Pulaha and Krathu.'
Chidambara Iyer exceeded the limits of a faithful translator by putting in the word Vikrama Saka which is not in the original text. The meaning of the original stanza is clearly this: If we add 2,526 years to the present Saka which Varaha Mihira has not named, Yudhistira Saka will be obtained. Now the question is what was the Saka prevalent at that time? Collateral authorities have completely affirmed that Mihiracharya was given the title of Varaha or Wild Boar, the emblem of Vikrama's Royalty by the great Emperor Vikramaditya himself, as will be made plain in the subsequent chapters. Since Yudhistira Saka is to be obtained by adding 2,526 to the present Saka obtaining at the time of Mihira, it cannot refer to Vikrama as that Saka came into existence after some decades of Mihira's composition" (Life of Varaha Mihira by B. Suryanarain Rao).
One of the primary purposes for these "your ancestors were ignorant apes" assertions is solely to destroy people's cultural and ethnic identity in order to create one vast homogenous underclass of serfs and slaves and a new social order. This is nothing new and has been happening for millennia. For example: "But thus shall you deal with them; you shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their [sacred] groves, and burn their graven images with fire" (Deuteronomy 7.5) - The following verse mentions ruling over all of the people of the earth after their identity is destroyed in that verse. This is a violation of the UN mandate on Indigenous People's Rights and all humans are indigenous, therefore all humans have the Natural Human Right to their own cultural and ethnic identity and history.
"They mixed us up with [Westerners]. They took away our language. They took our kids away to schools and wouldn't let them learn about the old culture. They herded us onto reservations and rewarded Indians who acted just like [Westerners]. They created a generation of Indians who didn't even know who they were" (Neither Wolf Nor Dog).
"People living in countries at points diametrically opposite to where the sun is first seen rising will see the sun setting, and if a straight line were drawn from a point where the sun is at midday, the people in countries at the opposite end of the line would be experiencing midnight. Similarily, if people residing where the sun is setting were to go to countries diametrically opposite, they would not see the sun in the same condition" Srimad Bhagavatam 5.21.8-9).
Even if we had no evidence of ancient beliefs, which we do, we can use inference and contemplate things like sailors seeing mountains or high towers and such from the ocean and seeing the curvature of the earth, or lunar eclipses which reveal the earth's shadow as curved.
"At a lunar eclipse the Moon enters the shadow of the earth, and at a solar eclipse she enters the Sun's disc. That is the reason why the lunar eclipse does not begin at the western limb, nor the solar one at the eastern limb" (Brhat Samhita 5.
. This was written by Varahamihira who was likely from around 2000 years ago according to B S Rao.
We could do like Eratosthenes did to verify the ancient Egyptian teaching of the size of the circumference of the earth and test this ancient teaching like he did.
In studying the history of science, in the West and in the East, I have noticed numerous discrepancies between the two. Western history always starts like, so-and-so was the first to measure the speed of light, or the first to measure the circumference of the earth, while in reality these things were done by previous peoples or learned from previous peoples, but this is never acknowledged by the ravening beast of Western History which devours everything in its path.
The Surya Siddhanta lists the diameters of the planets, and that text also states:
"O Maya, hear attentively the excellent knowledge of the science of astronomy which the Sun himself formerly taught to the great rshis in each of the yugas.
I teach you the same ancient science...But the difference between the present and the ancient works is caused only by time, on account of the revolution of the yugas."
The Sun is referred to as the atma or center or soul in various ancient texts, and it is also said to support the other planets, but as astrologers we know why the geocentric version was used: because we do not live on the Sun...
Rather than try to destroy people's identity by referring to their history as mythology we could contemplate whether there are scientific truths or any type of truths behind mysterious statements about reality which sound strange or "superstitious" initially, especially when wrong translations are used such as 'cows' for something with an entirely different (and more than one) meaning.
What always happens at this forum and likely anywhere, is an example of how wonderful multiculturalism is.
I do not think this history must have an either the vedas date to 3000 years ago or 12000 years ago proposition, nevermind the traditional Hindu perspective either. Let us ponder this for a bit, why is all history only dated to several thousand years ago? Were there no humans on this planet until 3000-4000 BCE? Did all humans invent their cultural teachings only a few thousand years ago and before that there was only void and empty minded peoples? The reason history is portrayed this way has a few explanations, one of which is to destroy other people's roots, but it is a symptom also of the thinking common in Europe several hundred years ago that the world was invented around 4000 BCE. This is nowadays considered rubbish natural history understanding, but the constraints it put into place still affect the dating of the vedas and nakshtras discussions! Did paleolithic peoples not have any cultural teachings or ideas passed down to their descendants? Of course they did, but this is not accepted in scholarly circles because of the mind-control still in effect which goes unrecognized...
When Westerners first looked at the ages and yugas and cycles in Indian thought, they could not believe it. Nowadays those vast time scales look normal... But this narrowmindedness still affects the dating discussions like this one...
I do not believe the option that either one is a rational scholar or a rabid nationalist in regards to this argument, neither do I believe nationalism=evil, nor is this belief evil according to the UN mandate on Indigenous People's Rights: to their own identity and culture and history (even if some people believe other people's history is myth). All peoples are indigenous peoples, therefore all peoples have a right to their own worldview according to the UN mandate on the Human Rights. Therefore, hindus have a right to their own history of the vedas.
The reason I call Western versions of Indian history a myth is because this is what contemporary Western academics call everyone else's history (including oftentimes their own ancestor's history).
When I referred to the "fraudulent foundation" of Western versions of Indian history I did not mean it was necessarily motivated by malintent on everyone's part, only that zero evidence was used to establish the vedic period and that period has not moved since then, but when evidence is brought up suggesting a large error thet evidence is reviled as 'not evidence' or motivated by evil.
I would encourage people to read the Indian academic literature insofar as their own 'history of science', and Indian archeology, from Indian perspectives. There are discrepancies. Nevermind the traditional teachings.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1998BASI...26...61A
http://insaindia.org/comijhs2.php
There are cities in India dated older than the Harappa dating, according to Indian archeologists, but even if there were not, any paleontologist knows that lack of evidence does not prove something in this regards.
Here is a caricature of the usual teaching that is taught in Western Academia:
The Indians were crawling around on their hands and knees and all of a sudden stood up and built Harrapa and Mohenjo-daro (nevermind Mehrgarh). Then the Indians sort of did nothing for 2000 years and all of a sudden whipped out the vedas in 1000 BCE. Even the western academia acknowledges cities older than the oldest Hindu literature. This is a suspicious history.
"Among all of these the most influential on my career was Otto Neugebauer, who showed me how [to] interpret correctly ancient astronomical texts and tables in various ancient languages and to demonstrate the dependence of one culture?s mathematical models and parameters on another?s." - David Pingree
Study very carefully the background and lifestory of this mentor of Pingree who was one of the primary persons responsible for creating the myth that I will give a caricature of: that all humans were crawling around on their hands and knees until they were gifted with civilization from the people from Mesopotamia. The irony is that the ethnocentrism was on the side of Pingree's mentor and the daters of the vedas in the West, yet when Indians challenge this history version, then it is Indians who are falsely accused. When everyone else's history is destroyed, e.g. the burning of Alexandria, or the burning of the libraries in India by Muslims, or the forced conversion of Europe one tribe at a time, then it certainly does start to look like Mesopotamia was the only source...The Book of Deuteronomy (KJV translation is more honest) is a synopsis of what has happened in the West these last thousands of years.
The so-called Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy nor Roman nor an Empire, said Voltaire, and it is doubtful that it actually ended since the memes and power centres morphed to a continuation of the old in new places.
The rg veda contains sexagesimal maths and this veda also has identical deities as found among indigenous European tribes before they were secretly murdered and oppressed by the so-called Holy Roman Empire, therefore the vedic deities go back to before the split when the indigenous Europeans traveled to and were found in Europe, i.e., at the latest, the upper Paleolithic, since these things had to have been in existence before the split of the Indo-European tribes.
I will present a few excerpts from a text titled: Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy by mathematician Richard L. Thompson, to demonstrate what happens when we actually begin to investigate the work of Western historians of science, rather than just defer to them as "scholars" (i.e. modern priests) and regurgitate their conclusions and cite references to their work as though it were inviolable scripture...
The purpose of this presentation is to demonstrate how lies become truth in Western history, this is not unique to the history of science either...
"Nonetheless, even though our knowledge of the history of ancient astronomy is extremely incomplete, there are scholars who believe that they can uncover important parts of this history by speculative reconstruction. One example of this is a paper entitled 'The Recovery of Early Greek Astronomy from India,' by David Pingree (PG). In order to indicate the complexities and pitfalls of the speculative process, we will examine the key argument of this paper in detail. This will involve the use of a number of technical astronomical terms, but we will explain these as we go along. Our method will be to first present Pingree's theory, and then give his reasons for accepting this theory as true. Then step by step we will show the fallacies in his reasoning and present an alternative theory that is in better agreement with the facts (Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy by Richard L. Thompson).
"Now, how does Pingree know that this is what Aryabhata did some 1,400 years ago? His key argument is that if we use Ptolemaic calculations to reproduce Aryabhata's supposed steps, then we obtain Aryabhata's parameters for mean planetary motions almost exactly. Aryabhata's parameters, listed under R in Table A2.1, are in the hundreds of thousands and millions. Column (1) of this table lists the differences between Aryabhata's parameters and these parameters as reconstructed by Pingree. For example, for Jupiter, Aryabhata's rate is 364,224 revolutions per yuga cycle, and Pingree's reconstruction is larger than this by 4. Since these differences are very small, it is hard to imagine how Aryabhata could have arrived at his parameters without following the scenario that Pingree proposes. This makes it seem that Pingree's conclusion concerning Aryabhata is indisputable, and equally so his contention that nearly every aspect of Indian astronomy was imported from Greek sources without acknowledgement (PG, pp. 114-15).
An argument such as Pingree's has a great impact on the academic world. It tends to be immediately convincing to scholars, and it becomes established as a foundation stone in an imposing school of thought that cannot be easily challenged by nonprofessionals. As a result, scholars in other fields (such as comparative religion and history) accept the conclusions of such a school as a matter of course, and modify their own views in accordance with it...
...However, one can indeed find other ways by which Aryabhata could have arrived at his parameters...
...most of the significant digits in these parameters come from the Brahmapaksa parameters, which Aryabhata acknowledges as source material...
...As we shall see, this fine tuning can be accounted for in ways other than the one advocated by Pingree. To do this, it is first necessary to examine Pingree's argument more closely" (Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy by Richard L. Thompson).
"After we have checked our Ptolemaic calculations at the Kali-yuga starting date, the next step is to perform these calculations for noon of March 21, A.D. 499, the date of Aryabhata's alleged calculations. There are 454,759 days from Ptolemy's epoch to this date. If we compute the Ptolemaic mean positions for this date, a number of interesting points emerge. First of all, the Ptolemaic mean longitudes do not at all agree with Pingree's figures, as given in his Table 2 (PG, p. 116). This can be seen by comparing the rightmost and leftmost columns of Table A2.2." (Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy by Richard L. Thompson).
"In his Table 1, Pingree lists distances from Zeta Piscium under the heading "Distance from Zeta Piscium," and mean longitudes under lambda, the Greek letter symbolizing these quantities (PG, p. 115). Yet in his table 2, he lists quantities under lambda that are really distances from Zeta Piscium, and he refers to these quantities as mean longitudes. We have not been able to account for this discrepancy in nomenclature.
We have also not been able to account for the discrepancies between the middle and rightmost columns of A2.2, for it would seem that calculations for 454,759 days after Ptolemy's epoch should be even more precise than calculations for 860,172.25 days before that epoch. (We note that Pingree's Ptolemaic calculations apparently have not been corrected for the time difference between Ptolemy's city of Alexandria and Aryabhata's city of Ujjain; this possible correction does not account for the discrepancy.)...
...For Venus and Mercury the errors in Pingree's reconstruction of Aryabhata's parameters turn out to be worse than those reported by Pingree in his paper. (Compare columns 1 and 2 of Table A2.1.) This indicates errors on Pingree's part, but it might be argued that it does not detract very badly from his hypothesis. We therefore ask, Is there some reasonable way of reconstructing Aryabhata's parameters that produce smaller errors for all of the planets than Pingree's method? The answer is yes. To explain this, we must turn to a discussion of the mean positions of the planets according to modern astronomy...
...Let us suppose that Aryabhata did this, and that he then computed his parameters using his observed longitudes rather than longitudes copied from a Greek table. This leads to a reconstruction of his parameters based on modern calculation of the differences between mean longitudes and the sun's mean longitude. The longitudes and resulting parameters for this reconstruction are listed in the last two columns of Table A2.3, and the errors in this reconstruction are listed in column (5) of Table A2.1. As we can see, these errors are zero, except for Mercury, where the error is equal to that in Pingree's reported reconstruction (see columns (1) and (2)). Thus, the hypothesis of observation yields better results than the hypothesis of copying from Greek tables" (Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy by Richard L. Thompson).
"These statements certainly convey the impression that the Indian sine table was directly obtained from a related trigonometrical table used by the Greek astronomer Hipparchus. However, what do we find if we actually examine the paper by G.J. Toomer that these authorities are citing? Let us briefly consider this.
The first thing that we learn from this paper is that there are no surviving Greek documents containing Hipparchus' chord table, even in a fragmentary form. Indeed, 'there is no explicit evidence about the nature of Hipparchus' chord table,' and no real proof that such a table ever existed (TM1, p. 6). It is important to note that only one work of Hipparchus' had survived - a commentary on the stars - and this does not present his mathematical methods. As we have already noted, this is typical of the state of our knowledge of pre-Ptolemaic Greek astronomy...
...By this reasoning Toomer maintains that "the nature of Hipparchus' chord table is conclusively established" (TMI, p. 16). Since the table has the structure of an Indian sine table, it follows that Indian trigonometry must have been derived from the Greeks. The idea that Greeks may have been influenced by Indian developments is never even suggested by modern Western historians of science. But in this case, of course, we have no evidence for influence either way, since the connection between Hipparchus' two numbers and the Indian sine table is purely speculative" (Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy by Richard L. Thompson).
"Since the chord table of Hipparchus has not survived (if it ever existed), it is remarkable that such slender evidence can be offered as the basis for 'inevitable' conclusions about it. Yet, as we have seen, such speculative reconstructions are not unusual in the field of the history of science. Here we will give one more example. This is provided by the mathematician B.L. van der Waerden, who traces back Hipparchus' trigonometry to the Greek mathematician Appolonius of Perge...
...One should note here that van der Waerden does not cite a reference giving Appolonius' estimate of [greek math pi symbol], and he also gives no reference that specifically attributes studies of trigonometry to Appolonius. Thus we do not know what Apollonius's estimate of [greek pi math symbol] was, nor do we know whether he actually knew any trigonometry" (Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy by Richard L. Thompson).
"We have discussed the arguments of Pingree, Toomer, and van der Waerden in detail to show the kind of foundations that underlie scholarly conclusions about the origins of Indian astronomy. The main characteristic of these foundations is that they are composed almost entirely of unsupported assumptions, biased interpretations, and imaginary reconstructions. It is unfortunate, however, that after many scholars have presented arguments of this type in learned treatises, the arguments accumulate to produce an imposing stratified deposit of apparently indisputable authority. In this way, supposedly solid facts are established by the fossilization of fanciful speculations whose original direction was determined by scholarly prejudice. Ultimately, these facts are presented in elementary texts and popular books, and accepted on faith by innocent people" (Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy by Richard L. Thompson).
In the work of B.G. Tilak, it is found that he was informing Western Indologists of Sanskrit words found in Mesopotamia, and yet those Western scholars never informed the general public of this, because they had ulterior motives to present everything as a one-sided transmission coming out of Mesopotamia. Therefore, some Western scholars can be said to be liars by omission.
Indians developed various maths and discovered various things about the universe before the Western dating of these things, and Western history of science still to this day does not include the Indian discoveries in their fradulent so-called history of science.
See this thread for example:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7368
Also, insofar as the allegations the Indians borrowed 12 house or sign astrology from Mesopotamians via Hellenists, contemplate the 12 adityas, for example:
See 8:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbr/sbe44/sbe44036.htm
See 9:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbr/sbe12/sbe1246.htm
So, we an association of the Adityas as a division of the year and the day and the sky.
Also, see 4.5.1-3:
http://www.safarmer.com/Indo-Eurasian/O ... miniya.pdf
Also, see 4.10.10:
http://www.safarmer.com/Indo-Eurasian/O ... miniya.pdf
Further original source parallels can be found in a text titled: Studies on Rigvedic Deities: Astronomical and Meteorological by Ekendranath Ghosh.
Also, see these articles:
http://www.vedicsociety.org/articles.php?authors_id=1
"Some scholars have claimed that the Babylonians invented the zodiac of 360 degrees around 700 BCE, perhaps even earlier. Many claim that India received the knowledge of the zodiac from Babylonia or even later from Greece. However, as old as the Rig Veda, the oldest Vedic text, there are clear references to a chakra or wheel of 360 spokes placed in the sky. The number 360 and its related numbers like 12, 24, 36, 48, 60, 72, 108, 432 and 720 occur commonly in Vedic symbolism. It is in the hymns of the great Rishi Dirghatamas (RV I.140 ? 164) that we have the clearest such references." This excerpt from:
http://www.vedicsociety.org/vedic-origi ... 0o91kj6e44
"To quote from David Pingree?s "History of mathematical astronomy in India," in the Dictionary of Scientific Biography, C.S. Gillespie (ed.), pp. 533-633, Charles Scribners, New York, 1981, page 534: "In the case of the priority of the Rgveda to the Brahmanas, it is not always clear that the views expressed in the latter developed historically after the composition of the former. All texts that can reasonably be dated before ca. 500 BC are here considered to represent essentially a single body of more or less uniform material." The point of his statement is to try to get such Rig Veda references as those of Dirghatamas later than the Brahmana texts as both reflect a similar sophisticated astronomy, which is necessary to make it later than the Babylonian references and a product of a Babylonian influence as he proposes. This requires reducing all the layers of Vedic literature to a more or less uniform mass at a very late date, which is contrary to almost every view of the text." This excerpt also from the above link and below link:
http://www.vedicsociety.org/vedic-origi ... 0o91kj6e44
Pingree tried to attribute the veda itself as a product of Mesopotamians...
At the following link there is an online text titled: Astronomical dating of events from Indian history
http://www.ancientindianastrology.com/cmsa/
From the above stated online text at that site:
"Description of Event Dating
Sri Krishna, on his final peace mission, set out for Hastinapura, when the moon was at the asterism Revati. September 26, 3067 BCE
Krishna arrived in Hastinapura when the moon was at the asterism Bharani. September 28,3067
The lunar eclipse September 29, 3067 BCE
The solar eclipse at Jyestha October 14, 3067 B.C.
The Great Bharata War November 22, 3067 BCE
Balarama sits out the war and sets out for pilgrimage along the Sarasvati November 1, 3067 B.C.
Balarama returns from his pilgrimage, on the last day of the war Dec 12, 3067 BCE
The winter solstice occurred on January 13, 3066 BCE
Bhishma?s expiry January 16, 3066 BCE
Birth and nirvana of Sri Krishna (we have used 81 years as his lifespan but some traditions put his lifespan as 197 years) with a birthdate of July 21,3228 BCE 3112 BCE to 3031 BCE
The comet Mahaghora appeared at the asterism Pushya October ,3066 BCE
Birth and Nirvana of Lord Buddha April 9, 1887 to March 27,1807 BCE
Birth and Nirvana of Adi Sankara April 5, 509 BCE
Beginning of the Vikrama Era (Sukla pratipada) March 14 , 57 BCE
Salivahana Saka 78 CE"
"Most countries in Central Asia, particularly those with their names ending with ?stan? or ?istan?, such as ? Balochistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Turkistan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, and Kazakhstan ? could be part of Greater India in ancient times. ?Sthan/stan? is a Sanskrit word, meaning ?place?. When drawing a line around these istan countries, beginning at Kazakhstan, in the extreme northwest, and ending at Pakistan, they make a block connecting with India. These countries were snatched away one by one by Muslim tribes. Last being Pakistan."
?He who has money, lives long: he who has authority, can do no wrong: he who has might, establishes right. Such is history?. - Gottfried Benn.
"The present narration of [Indian] history especially in the English language is not accurate and is fundamentally flawed both chronologically and as to the nature of the content . There should be no question in anybody?s mind that the present narrative of our history as taught to our children is the legacy of the British . I would be astonished if anybody were
to contradict me on this assumption. This is therefore not an opinion but a fact.."
"The First Boden Professor of Sanskrit in Oxford University was H.H. Wilson. Then it was Monier Williams and he was followed by Max M?ller. Personal letters of Mr Max M?ller gives a true picture of the writer's inner mind. Such letters are very helpful in estimating his real nature and character. In a letter to his wife in 1886 A.D. Max M?ller wrote:
This edition of mine and the translation of the Veda will hereafter tell to a great extent on the fate of India ... It is the root of their religion and to show them what the root is, I feel sure, is the only way of uprooting all that has sprung from it during the last three thousand years."
In a letter on 16th December 1868 A.D he writes to Duke of Argyll, the Minister for India:
'The ancient religion of India is doomed and if Christianity does not step in, whose fault will it be?'
You can understand how biased was colonial scholarship of Sanskrit learning. Max M?ller's bias is now an open secret. The strange factor is that Max M?ller does not understand simple Sanskrit and he cannot write and translate. Then what about his Vedic knowledge?"
"Indian astronomy is claimed to be borrowed from the Greeks, but the Vedanga Jyotisha cannot be dated later than the 14th century BC. The name itself, Vedanga, indicates it is later than the Vedas, so the astronomical references in the Vedas must be older. In addition, Harappan archaeology of the third millennium BC belongs
astronomically to the ?Krittika period? (vernal equinox in Krittika or the Pleiades cluster in Taurus), which is mentioned in the later Vedic literature. This places the Harappan civilization later than the Rigveda and not before it as claimed by historians."
"Migrations: The major migration or invasion?the famous or infamous Aryan invasion?is supposed to have taken place after 2000 BC, but available genetic evidence shows that the people of India have lived where they are for tens of thousands of years, perhaps as long as 50,000 years or more."
"It is my firm conviction that the current history, as revised by the colonial overlord, and taught to our [Indian] children worldwide does not meet the minimum standards of any episteme. I do not know of any civilization or nation that lets its history be hijacked by those who have a minimum accountability to ensure its veracity and in fact has an agenda that is very cavalier and nonchalant, if not hostile to our traditional heritage. Till the advent of independence we had an excuse that we were held on a short leash by the colonial overlord, but what is the excuse today?"
Note: I personally know of many groups of people who have had their roots and history hijacked and destroyed. We could start looking right here at home - look at the European university programs which teach "European" religion and include Christianity.
Isn't the Aesir-Vanir war the same as the stories of the asura-deva wars?
Are not Arvak and Alsvin, the horses connected with the Sun in the Norse religion, the very same Ashvini twins connected with horses and the Sun in the Vedic tradition and which the Ashwini nakshatra is named after?
"These scholars have discounted the fact that two of the greatest epics of
the world, Ramayana and Mahabharata are traditionally regarded as itihasa s, i.e., historic texts and that there are in addition, a host of supporting texts in the form of Puranas. Ignoring the fact that Bharata has its own sense of history and the purpose of history, which differs
from their own concept of history, the scholars have systematically misrepresented the chronology of Bharata"
"Krshna?s mission for peace is so important that astronomical events in reference to that mission
are recorded.
(i) Krshna leaves for Hastinapura in the maitri muhurta in the month of Kartika on the day of Revati nakshatra.
(ii) On the way he halts at a place called Vrkasthala and reaches Hastinapura on the day of Bharani nakshatra
(iii) The meetings and discussions for peace go on till the day of Pushya nakshatra, when Duryodhana rejects all offers of peace. War becomes imminent.
(iv) Krshna leaves Hastinapura on the day of Uttara Phalguni. Karna
accompanies him in his chariot and has a long conversation with him.
(v) During the conversation Karna describes some omens he has seen that indicate a great harm to the Kuru family which include the following: shani is afflicting Rohini, angaraka has performed a retrograde motion before reaching Jyeshtha and is prograde again having past Anuradha, the moon had lost all its luster on the full moon of Kartika and a solar eclipse would appear to take place next new moon day.
(vi) At the end of the conversation, Krshna sends a message to Bhishma and Drona through Karna that seven days from that day there is going to be an Amavasya at Jyeshtha and that war rituals be started on that day. This must be the Amavasya that Karna refers to as the eclipse day."
"Even Bhagavata Purana acknowledges that although Kaliyuga had already started, because of the presence of Krshna, Kali?s effect had been
controlled. The full power of Kali became effective only with the departure of Krshna...
Thus there is no conflict with the war occurring in 3067 BCE and the
reckoning of Kaliyuga from 3102 BCE."
"One consequence of the mix up of the names of Ashokaditya of the Guptas with Ashoka of the Mauryas is the misdating of Buddha. According to Puranic evidence, there had expired 1500 years after Pariksit, when Mahapadmananda was coronated. Between Pariksit and the Nandas, there were three royal dynasties, Brhadratha, Pradyota and Sisunaga families. The Nandas who ruled Magadha for 100 years, were followed by Mauryas, Sunga, Kanva and Andhras. Candragupta founded the Mauryan dynasty with the help of Canakya. His son was Bimbisara and grandson was Ashokavardhana. The Maurya- s ruled for a total of 316 years and
were replaced by the sunga-s. The Kanva-s who succeeded the Sunga-s were themselves supplanted by the Andhra-s, who ruled for a total of 506 years. Then followed the reign of srigupta-s for a period of 245 years. This age has been termed the ?Golden Age? in the history of
Bharata. It is Samudragupta of the srigupta dynasty who was known as ?Ashokaditya Priyadarsin? The ?Inscriptions of Ashoka? belong to this Gupta emperor and not to Ashoka Maurya , who came to power after 218 years after Buddha.
Buddha was the son of King Suddhodana who was the 23rd king of the Ikshvaku dynasty and Puranic-records point to 1807 BCE as the date of attaining nirvana by Buddha. Just as in the case of Krshna, it appears that his date of birth is calculated after determining the date of parinirvana (final departure). Buddha?s nirvana Kota Venkatachelam has determined that Buddha?s nirvana occurred on the vaishakha Purnima, on March 27, 1807 BCE. Simulations show that astronomically this is indeed the situation as shown in Figure 16. Many other scholars also agree as to the date of Buddha?s nirvana."
"According to it shankara was born in the year Nandana of Kaliyuga
2593 (509 BCE) in the month of vishakha...The Figure 21 shows a star map for April 5, 509 BCE and it is easily seen that tithi, lagna, nakshatra and the positions of the planets are exactly as described in the horoscope."
"The Western historians have tried to identify Kanishka era with 78 CE in their attempt to deny historicity of the... but based on the list from Rajataraangini, Kanishka?s date would be 1298 BCE."
The details of the arguments for these assertions can be found in the above-mentioned online text, which I will state the title here again: Astronomical dating of events from Indian history from the following website:
http://www.ancientindianastrology.com/cmsa/
Max M?ller was a hired agent for the British East India Company, to help subjugate the Indian, just as the Europeans were subjugated some centuries or millenium prior.
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/recent_res ... _river.htm
Here is another example of the distortions of Indian history:
"As regards the date of [Varaha Mihira's] birth, it is a great pity that such great writers as Sir William Hunter, Dr. Bhular, H. Kern, Colebrooke, Bentley, Wilford, Wilson, Cunningham, Weber, Lassen, Maxmuller, Hall, San Julien, Reinauld and other Orientalists have fallen into the greatest blunder in determining his age while Varaha Mihira himself says in his Brihat Samhita Chapter 13 verses 3 and 4 thus:
Aseen makhasu munayaha
Sasathi prithvim
Yudhistaray nrupathau
Shadvika panchadviyuta
Sake tasyaragnasya
N. Chidambara Iyer a fairly good astronomer and mathematician who has translated Brihat Samhita and Brihat Jataka some 55 years ago thus translates this stanza: 'During the reign of Yudhistira 2,526 years before the commencement of Vikrama Saka the Seven Rishis were at the constellation of Magha or Regulus. The rishis take a period of 100 years to go over each of the twenty-seven asterisms rising in the North East. The rishis are Marichi, Vasishta, Angirasa, Atri, Pulastya, Pulaha and Krathu.'
Chidambara Iyer exceeded the limits of a faithful translator by putting in the word Vikrama Saka which is not in the original text. The meaning of the original stanza is clearly this: If we add 2,526 years to the present Saka which Varaha Mihira has not named, Yudhistira Saka will be obtained. Now the question is what was the Saka prevalent at that time? Collateral authorities have completely affirmed that Mihiracharya was given the title of Varaha or Wild Boar, the emblem of Vikrama's Royalty by the great Emperor Vikramaditya himself, as will be made plain in the subsequent chapters. Since Yudhistira Saka is to be obtained by adding 2,526 to the present Saka obtaining at the time of Mihira, it cannot refer to Vikrama as that Saka came into existence after some decades of Mihira's composition" (Life of Varaha Mihira by B. Suryanarain Rao).
One of the primary purposes for these "your ancestors were ignorant apes" assertions is solely to destroy people's cultural and ethnic identity in order to create one vast homogenous underclass of serfs and slaves and a new social order. This is nothing new and has been happening for millennia. For example: "But thus shall you deal with them; you shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their [sacred] groves, and burn their graven images with fire" (Deuteronomy 7.5) - The following verse mentions ruling over all of the people of the earth after their identity is destroyed in that verse. This is a violation of the UN mandate on Indigenous People's Rights and all humans are indigenous, therefore all humans have the Natural Human Right to their own cultural and ethnic identity and history.
"They mixed us up with [Westerners]. They took away our language. They took our kids away to schools and wouldn't let them learn about the old culture. They herded us onto reservations and rewarded Indians who acted just like [Westerners]. They created a generation of Indians who didn't even know who they were" (Neither Wolf Nor Dog).
Kent or Dan wrote: But it did something worse, too. It took away all of our history from before the time you came here to our country. It's like before you came here, we didn't exist. You won't believe anything we tell you unless you can dig up some pot or an arrowhead. Then you put it in a lot of machines and put chemicals on it so you can know when it was made, and then you can say, 'Now we know about it, Now we know what happened.' Then the man who did the tests writes down what he found out and other people write down what they think about what he found out, and you call that history.
'I can come to you and tell you what my grandfathers told me, and that's not history unless the chemicals told you the same things. I can even tell you about power, like wipoye, the medicine bag, or how one becomes a double woman - but I wouldn't - and you would just say that is a story.
'See, none of what we know is history to you. Our sacred stories are just legends to you. The powers we were given by our ancestors you think are superstitious. The responsiblities, too. None of that is real in your history.
'All it really means is there wasn't anyone with a book writing things down. It doesn't matter that when your people came with books and wrote things down, they wrote lies. Once it was down then it was truth. Then there was history. The elders used to say, 'Wasichu builds his house on lies.'
That's what they meant.'
-Neither Wolf Nor Dog
"People living in countries at points diametrically opposite to where the sun is first seen rising will see the sun setting, and if a straight line were drawn from a point where the sun is at midday, the people in countries at the opposite end of the line would be experiencing midnight. Similarily, if people residing where the sun is setting were to go to countries diametrically opposite, they would not see the sun in the same condition" Srimad Bhagavatam 5.21.8-9).
Even if we had no evidence of ancient beliefs, which we do, we can use inference and contemplate things like sailors seeing mountains or high towers and such from the ocean and seeing the curvature of the earth, or lunar eclipses which reveal the earth's shadow as curved.
"At a lunar eclipse the Moon enters the shadow of the earth, and at a solar eclipse she enters the Sun's disc. That is the reason why the lunar eclipse does not begin at the western limb, nor the solar one at the eastern limb" (Brhat Samhita 5.
. This was written by Varahamihira who was likely from around 2000 years ago according to B S Rao.We could do like Eratosthenes did to verify the ancient Egyptian teaching of the size of the circumference of the earth and test this ancient teaching like he did.
In studying the history of science, in the West and in the East, I have noticed numerous discrepancies between the two. Western history always starts like, so-and-so was the first to measure the speed of light, or the first to measure the circumference of the earth, while in reality these things were done by previous peoples or learned from previous peoples, but this is never acknowledged by the ravening beast of Western History which devours everything in its path.
The Surya Siddhanta lists the diameters of the planets, and that text also states:
"O Maya, hear attentively the excellent knowledge of the science of astronomy which the Sun himself formerly taught to the great rshis in each of the yugas.
I teach you the same ancient science...But the difference between the present and the ancient works is caused only by time, on account of the revolution of the yugas."
The Sun is referred to as the atma or center or soul in various ancient texts, and it is also said to support the other planets, but as astrologers we know why the geocentric version was used: because we do not live on the Sun...
Rather than try to destroy people's identity by referring to their history as mythology we could contemplate whether there are scientific truths or any type of truths behind mysterious statements about reality which sound strange or "superstitious" initially, especially when wrong translations are used such as 'cows' for something with an entirely different (and more than one) meaning.
With no disrespect to these authors I would say their suggested dating for this process has been overtaken by new research. In particular, their assumption of such an early date for the combination of nakshatras with rasi cakra seems very hard to reconcile with the discovery of dated Jyotisa texts in China. Exact datings have always been the plague of Indian astrological history. However, as Bill Mak suggests the preserved Jyotisa texts in China are a 'time capsule' of the development of Indian Jyotisa. We now know that early astrological texts seem to work with the 28 nakshatras alone without the rasi cakra. This trend carries on for hundreds of years into the common era.