Page 2 of 4

Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:12 pm
by Mark
Mark wrote:
The distinctive thing about the varga is that a whole new horoscope is generated from these divisions.
Martin Gansten
That is certainly the modern practice. For what it's worth, though, I can't recall seeing any textual evidence (in pre-modern texts) to support that practice. I'd be interested to know if anyone has.
Ok. Perhaps my comment misled by leaving open the implication that separate divisional charts had an ancient origin. I wasn't aiming to get into a historical discussion on the practice. Simply reflecting the fact that (like it or not) most Indian astrologers seem to utilise this kind of technique today.

Perhaps you could explicitly define what you mean by the term 'modern' in the context of Indian astrological practice? I am not entirely clear what the term means in this frame of reference.

Its true enough that ancient texts like The Yavanaj?taka of Sphujidhvaja dont really mention separate divisional charts. What we get are various delineations based on divisions of the zodiac signs.

Here is a sample from David Pingree's translation:
In the odd signs, the first half is solar, the second lunar, they say; in the even signs, the Moon is lord of the first half, and the Sun of the second.

Halves of the signs in the circle of (zodiacal) constellations are called by
the name of their series Horas. I will describe them briefly, but in detail,
together with their various shapes, insignia, distinguishing marks, and
forms.

The first Hora in Aries wears red clothes and is flaming like the Sun at Doomsday. He holds a sword and a firebrand in his hands. His hair is
tawny and sticks up, and his ear-rings are of gold. He is a fierce man who
has raised the staff of Death for the sake of protection.

This is a man-shaped creature whose cry is loud and who has a long,
thin face. Standing in the midst of flocks of goats and sheep, and mounted
on a goat, he rules his host.

The second Hora in Aries wears a garland of skulls. His bow blazes with arrows. He has the strength of an elephant. He is bound with a half-girdle, and his clothes are black His limbs are adorned with snakes. Bearing a sword and (elephant?s) skin, and of terrible figure, he wears the diadem
(of Siva).

Entering the forest with his swift thieves, he lets loose destruction, this
fearful-faced man, splitting open the highest peak with his bolts. His
anxiety is destroyed and lost.

..........

The first Hora in Gemini holds a lyre in his hand. His completion
is the colour of a parrot?s tail-feather. He is an artistic man with a lowhanging robe whose nature it is to love singing, dancing, and listening (to music). Seated on a cane chair he composes poetry.

He runs after women and is clever in love. His sides are bound in the
embrace of a maiden?s arms. He is not much of a businessman, but he
speaks gently and sweetly, a very reprehensible person.

The second Hora in Gemini is established as being a woman
whose actions are charming and glowing with youth. She is pale and redlimbed, clever and grateful. She is besieged by the leader of an army in a wide-spreading war. Clothed in red, she wears a long red necklace.

Raising her arms, she cries out when she is robbed, She is made
naked by thieves in a park, but is brought back by means of an armed
conflict.

The Yavanaj?taka of Sphujidhvaja translated by David Pingree, 1978

Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:32 pm
by Michael Sternbach
Mark wrote:
Its true enough that ancient texts like The Yavanaj?taka of Sphujidhvaja dont really mention separate divisional charts. What we get are various delineations based on divisions of the zodiac signs.
Really interesting! So the Yavanaj?taka attaches this kind of images to all the horas... In ancient times, were these used for general interpretation of the natal chart (as opposed to the more specialized applications of the horas in later times)? Or for what purposes?

Is anything known about the origin of these images?

Was this type of iconography also in use for other zodiacal subdivisions (apart from the horas and, as far as I know, the decans/drekkana)?

Regards
Michael

Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:30 pm
by Mark
Deb quotes:
In ancient astrology the approximate value of 15? was commonly regarded as this distance. The earliest evidence for this value in Hellenistic astrology is Ps.-Eudox. ars [a 2nd century BCE papyrus] 14.7-10 p.20-21. It is already attested in Babylonian testimonies?.
I know this is a tangent but I find an interesting link here to the thinking of the early 20th century German astrologer Johannes Vehlow. In his monumental 8 volume work Lehrkursus der wissenschaftlichen Geburts-Astrologie Vehlow discusses his proposed equal house system (which has cusps in the house centre) in Volume 1 which was published in 1933.

Vehlow also realised the traditional orb of the Sun is 15? on either side and imagined it rising on the ASC degree. Hence he calls his type of house system 'solar'.

This type of equal house system (with cusps in the centre not the edge) seems to have independently developed in Indian astrology.

Vehlow attributed his house system to Egyptian astrology although this seems rather different from the whole sign house system that most commentators now think predominated in the early phase of ancient astrology.

Arguably, whole sign houses are symbolically 'solar' too in terms of their mirroring the annual motion of the Sun in each sign and their connection to the Sun's 15? orb if we imagine it in the middle of each whole sign house.

Mark

Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:14 am
by Martin Gansten
Mark wrote:Perhaps you could explicitly define what you mean by the term 'modern' in the context of Indian astrological practice? I am not entirely clear what the term means in this frame of reference.
I would say from the latter half of the 19th century, when Indian astrology began to be practised by new groups of people (influenced by English Theosophists). If I may quote my own article on 'Modern Astrologers' (Brill's Encyclopedia of Hinduism):
The modernization of western astrology led by Alan Leo explicitly strove to transform the ancient art from mere ?fortune-telling? ? punishable under British law ? into a vehicle of esoteric spiritual symbolism; a further step, from esotericism towards depth psychology, was taken by the next generation, notably by the American Theosophist Dane Rudhyar (1895 ? 1985). The Indian modernizers, by contrast, were happy for astrology to retain its customary predictive and prescriptive functions; the modernization process here related chiefly to shifts in the medium and intended audience of astrological instruction ? from traditional oral teaching within particular hereditary groups, based on Sanskrit sources, to the use of widely available printed manuals in English and the Indian vernaculars ? and, to some extent, to technical innovations.
The practice of displaying the varga placements of the planets in separate charts is, I believe, older than the practice of reading those charts separately.
Michael Sternbach wrote:Really interesting! So the Yavanaj?taka attaches this kind of images to all the horas... In ancient times, were these used for general interpretation of the natal chart (as opposed to the more specialized applications of the horas in later times)? Or for what purposes?

Is anything known about the origin of these images?

Was this type of iconography also in use for other zodiacal subdivisions (apart from the horas and, as far as I know, the decans/drekkana)?
I believe it's mainly these two, though I seem to recall some iconographical descriptions of the nav???as as well; and the ?a??ya??as are given specific names that could be called iconographical ('carrying a staff', etc). There is an old article by Pingree, 'The Indian Iconography of the Decans and Hor?s', in the Journal of the Warburg and Courtauld Institutes, Vol. 26, No. 3/4 (1963), pp. 223-254.

Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:38 am
by Mark
Martin Gansten wrote:
The practice of displaying the varga placements of the planets in separate charts is, I believe, older than the practice of reading those charts separately.
Can I ask you to expand on this point please? By suggesting varga charts are a 'modern practice' are you simply discussing their use for separate delineation in distinct charts rather than the practice of actually using them as a support to interpretation of the ASC chart?

Mark

Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:34 pm
by Michael Sternbach
Hello,

I'm still hoping that Curtis, Deb or somebody else versed in Valen's astrology would shed some light on the issue of the winds and the steps. How, exactly, were these calculated and interpreted?

Thanks in advance to anybody who can help.
Michael

Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:56 pm
by Martin Gansten
Mark wrote:Can I ask you to expand on this point please? By suggesting varga charts are a 'modern practice' are you simply discussing their use for separate delineation in distinct charts rather than the practice of actually using them as a support to interpretation of the ASC chart?
I feel a bit guilty about hijacking Michael's thread; that wasn't my intention. Briefly, as I understand the use of vargas in traditional Indian texts, they qualify the way a planet works in the horoscope; they are not meant to make up separate horoscopes complete with their own house placements, aspects, etc. I believe that the practice of drawing separate varga diagrams (for most vargas -- some, like the hor? or tri?????a, had no such diagrams because the divisions were not related to zodiacal signs) probably began as a simple way of representing the varga placements of all planets at once; and that the presence of such diagrams led to the practice of reading them as separate, derived horoscopes.

Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:51 pm
by zoidsoft
Michael Sternbach wrote:Hello,

I'm still hoping that Curtis, Deb or somebody else versed in Valen's astrology would shed some light on the issue of the winds and the steps. How, exactly, were these calculated and interpreted?

Thanks in advance to anybody who can help.
Michael
Please see the Riley translation of Valens online, page 178:

http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vet ... entire.pdf

There is at least one important difference between the Riley translation and Schmidt's. Riley translation says that:
"If any have the same wind as the apheta that they will be related and associated, especially in their own chronocratorships".
It is not very clear what that means taken by itself, but Schmidt spoke at length about the "nautical metaphor" and how the winds tied in with eminence considerations, the trigon lords as managers of the wind, etc. The Schmidt translation has this instead:
"For if some stars should be running with the same wind as the apheta, they will be congenial and sympathetic and especially in their own times".


The Schmidt translation makes it more clear that planets running in the opposite wind "rock the boat" so to speak and that is why such planets are considered malefic to the apheta.

Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:47 pm
by Mark
Zoidsoft wrote:
Please see the Riley translation of Valens online, page 178:
Hi Curtis,

The Riley translation only appears to be 172 pages long. :-?

Mark

Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:10 pm
by Konrad
Page 61, Mark.

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:11 am
by zoidsoft
For some reason my downloaded version has 493 pages, but I noticed a lot of duplicated content. Not sure how this happened.

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:25 pm
by Michael Sternbach
Hi Curtis,

thanks a lot for your help!

But quite frankly, I'm still not getting how exactly Valens calculated what step a particular planet falls into.

It's important for me to get this right for reasons of research.

If it's not too much to ask, could you give me a step-by-step example using a modern chart?

Very best regards
Michael