No I did not get the doctor thing either and certainly did not see the murder coming

"Mercury in pisces is not a very logical mind. The Moon is opposed to Mars and Saturn is opposed to the previous sign which I believe is form of enclosure but can Jupiter assist from that degree? The moon is in the first house but not the first sign so maybe Venus as asc ruler more important."

The above is what I said in my first post in the General Forum. It is a bit late now but perhaps this should have alerted me in some way

Neverless it was a good learning exercise for me as you stated earlier.

I look forward to your further comments


Matthew

i apologize for not being a bit more communicative here with regard to the comments being made. i was fascinated by the author of the book based on listening to his interview on cbc and of course very interested in the chart of romand when i got home after listening to the interview while driving. these are some quick observations on romands chart that i have.

while i haven't looked into the astro details of the events on his life and which i hope to do, my approach to understanding a chart hinges strongly on any planet in an angle. in this chart that would be saturn. saturn means a lot of different things to astrologers, but mostly i think of it's potential for good and bad expression and i find it difficult to impossible to know how it will operate in a chart beforehand. saturn is sometimes thought of as a deceiver, or one who wears masks for presenting a different image as needed as the case may be.. the two most poignant impressions i have of romand are as con artist, or deceptive strength to fool others, along with the fact he would go so far as to murder others to maintain the deception..

so where is the deception in the chart? i maintain it is caught in the symbology of saturn on the descendant. that he had some control over others finances and used this control for his own purposes seems to be captured with saturn in the sign scorpio. perhaps the fact saturn is about to go retrograde is also a factor entering into this. the fact that saturn is in the upper square to the sun/venus conjunction in aquarius puts a lot of strength into saturn in a commanding position here. saturn as ruler of the aquarius planets is strengthened further.. and then we have saturn ruling the midheaven degree as well. all in all, saturn seems to have great say in this chart which it does anyway in any chart, but especially here.

my next and equally important observation on this chart has to do with the 2 planets associated with the mind - mercury and moon - in square to one another.. i see this as a very difficult combo having a lot to do with romands outlook and as a consequence - the choice of options he would have considered that hinged on this same difficult and conflicted mental chemistry represented by the moon/mercury square. that they tie in with mars makes the chemistry that much more problematic - (moon = mercury/mars) is just more agitation in any already compromised head-space.. i don't think mercury in pisces in itself can be given all the blame. the fact is planetary phase has to be taken into consideration - some astrologers would place more emphasis on this, then sign position and of course in the sidereal chart mercury will be in aquarius. i don't think ramonds mental disposition can be seen by isolating and putting it all on mercury in pisces.. as a matter of fact i was looking at a chart this morning of the newly appointed Crimean chief prosecutor Natalia Poklonskaya - march 18 1980 who also has mercury in pisces.. one needs more then a simple description of mercury in pisces as fuzzy headed for example, to conclude how a person becomes a chief prosecutor, regardless of the location!! i think the planetary phase of mercury in romands chart is not as strong as it is in poklonskayas chart fwiw, but that there is more to a persons outlook then the position of mercury.. the moon is a huge factor too and can't be ignored. that they are in square is one tip-off that things are not right here. that the moon rules the 3rd house might be another one..

perhaps i will have more to say later, and hopefully others can comment more on this chart or aspects of romands personality/life that i haven't been made aware of yet.. perhaps the weakness of jupiter in combo with the strength of saturn is another way of looking at this chart too.. a good understanding of venus seems central to understanding this chart as well, seeing as it is the ruler of the ascendant and conjunct the sun. venus in a day chart in the sign aquarius doesn't sound well placed even if in the 10th house. being in the beams of the sun would be another negative. however, he must have been charming on some level to be able to manipulate people in the manner that he did. does that all get laid on the steps of saturn on the 7th house cusp, or does some get given to venus prominent in this chart, but in a somewhat negative manner?

I should also have placed more importance on the moon as co-almuten of asc and as exaltation arguably she trumps house ruler

one other comment about the moon - it is always a hugely important consideration to any chart which i think most astrologers would quickly acknowledge.. regarding the firmicus maternus book - or however that is spelt - one great idea that i got from that material is the importance of the previous and upcoming aspects the moon would make to planets. in this chart, the last aspect the moon would have made before birth would be to mars, while the next would be to mercury.. whether one wants to use midpoints or not - the fact the moon is sandwiched between these 2 planets - past and future - can't be ignored and must be considered quite relevant to this chart..

I hope that you did not imagine that I thought mercury in one of twelve signs said all about the mind. One can judge the quality of mercury simply by looking at whether it is in Movable, fixed or double-bodied signs in this context but you must take into account the moon and ascendant, temperament and chart ruler too.

I did come across a reference to Saturn governing the affairs of others that was relevant to this chart. The honesty and morals of the native I adjudged by looking at his character and found them wanting.
Put the two together and you get embezzler. Then I asked how such a native would experience major change and inferred a jail sentence connected with fraud. I did not see that he would murder when exposed but it is close to the truth; a truth discovered by logic, in other words deduction

Yes the planet to which the moon applies is worth looking at but in the case of sandwiching I would say the bread has to either malefic or benefic on each sides. I am thinking of the similar metaphors of besiegement or enclosure. In this case the aspects of Mars can surely do no good to mercury or moon I would guess


I am phone right now and eyes tired. Will try and elucidate when on big screen if asked

Matthew

Abu Bakr wrote

If the moon separated from mars , applied to mercury,and both were oriental,the native will be a liar,not to mention a master of fraud and betrayal

Not exact but worth sharing

Matthew

Hello Mjacob and james_m:

I believe the separation and application of the Moon is called the collection and translation of light, an important concept in the horary astrology taught by Lilly. I do not recall having read about it in Maternus though, but I might have.



EDIT:

Sorry, collection of light is something else:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/collection.html

It is translation of light:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/translation.html

James, can you post Romand's chart with the dodekatemoria of the planets in it? My further interpretation relies on it. I have been having problems uploading images online, due to my stupid computer.

Thanks.

Larxene

My reply on friday was lost but the gist was that Lilly, if memory serves used Sahl as a source and I am sure he and others like Masha'allah listed all these planetary conditions like collection and transfer of light.

I look forward to see if you make anything of duodecatomoriae.

Regards

hi larxene,
let me know if this is it. 12th harmonic is different. also fwiw - i still plan on discussing this chart, just don't have time right now!


image upload no limit

Err, yes, I use the 12th harmonic version. But the original planets are not there. It's easier to make comparisons with the original planets and dodekatemoria in the same chart.

I used Morinus 6.03 (Traditional) to generate the chart.


Note that I have already made my delineation. I just could not post the fricking image to facilitate our discussion.

image post