Skyscript Astrology Forum

I will look again

I think this is the one from I8

If the Sun and the ascendent and the Moon are in masculine signs, then, even if the "hour" of the nativity is double [i.e., even], males are born in it. If the Sun is in the ascendent in a masculine sign and the "hour" is double, males are born in it. If the ascendent is a two-bodied sign and is masculine and a masculine planet is in it, then, even if the "hour" of the nativity is double, males are born in it.

He mentions double and the note in brackets says"even" Later in the para he says two-bodied so he and Pingree appear to distinguish them.

Do not have Al-Biruni with me

If the Sun and the ascendent and the Moon are in masculine signs, then, even if the "hour" of the nativity is double [i.e., even], males are born in it. If the Sun is in the ascendent in a masculine sign and the "hour" is double, males are born in it. If the ascendent is a two-bodied sign and is masculine and a masculine planet is in it, then, even if the "hour" of the nativity is double, males are born in it.

But here I think he is telling us to observe a number of factors when determining gender, one being whether the "hour" is masculine (odd) or feminine (even). I take the reference to the double-bodied sign to be a separate or additional observation, for which he simply means the double-bodied signs.

His reference to "the hour" might be confusing because he doesn't mean the count of the planetary hours, but that of the dodecatamoiria, which begin by being masculine in masculine signs, and feminine in feminine signs. He explains their count at the end of chapter 8, book I (Pingree p.167):

• [I.8] A chapter. Knowledge of the masculine and feminine "hours" of the nativity.
  Know the masculine and feminine "hours" as, if the Moon is in a masculine dodecatemorion, he [the native] is masculine. If the Sun and the ascendent and the Moon are in masculine signs, then, even if the "hour" of the nativity is double [i.e., even], males are born in it. If the Sun is in the ascendent in a masculine sign and the "hour" is double, males are born in it. If the ascendent is a two-bodied sign and is masculine and a masculine planet is in it, then, even if the "hour" of the nativity is double, males are born in it. If you find a masculine planet in the ascendent and another masculine [planet] in the seventh sign and the "hour" is double, males are born in it. If the Moon is in a masculine sign and the Sun also is in a masculine sign and the ascendent is what it is and the lord of the ascendent is Jupiter, similarly males are born. Count the dodecatemoria according to this manner: in a masculine sign two and a half "days" [i.e., degrees] masculine and two and a half "days" feminine, and in a feminine sign: two and a half "days" feminine and two and a half "days" masculine.

Geoffrey wrote:

Mjacob wrote:Is it page 265 ?

Matthew

In the Astrology Classics "Carmen Astrologicum" (2005), yes.

The original question related to this page which is not up online yet. Dodectomoira I can barely spell let alone delineate but I guess it could be useful in the birth of twins. I hope James sees this as he was awaiting your response

Sorry for being neglectful of the contributions made to this thread. Every time I looked, Mjacob was the last contributor, so I thought nothing was happening.

Deb quoted this passage from the book:

• [I.8] A chapter. Knowledge of the masculine and feminine "hours" of the nativity.
  Know the masculine and feminine "hours" as, if the Moon is in a masculine dodecatemorion, he [the native] is masculine. If the Sun and the ascendent and the Moon are in masculine signs, then, even if the "hour" of the nativity is double [i.e., even], ....

Thankyou Deb, for this. I wish I could say I was further forward, but I suspect Chris Brennan is right - when we are three translations removed from the original text, some of the meaning is lost.

Take that phrase, "...if the Moon is in a masculine dodecatemorian..." for example. Now, we can talk about the dodecatemorian of the Moon and that is pretty straightforward to calculate. But this text talks about the Moon being in a masculine dodecatemorion.... and this only makes sense if we say that the Moon is in (or even "at") the dodecatemorion of another planet. But which one?

And what would be "masculine" about a dodecatemorion? The dodecatemorion of a planet's position may be in a masculine sign - but then why not just say "... if the Moon is in a masculine sign..."?

It is almost as if a natural dodecatemorion table is being assumed here working off Aries 0 degrees as a starting point, much like a table of terms or face.

Then again, the word hour is in parenthesis, "hour", meaning what exactly? Does it mean Pingree did not have a clue why the word hour should be there, but that is what was in the text and so that is how he translated it? Now, it is still usual in celestial navigation to talk about the "hour angle" for a difference in degrees of longitude. Is this what is hinted at?

And why would double mean even....?

I am lost

Geoffrey wrote:And what would be "masculine" about a dodecatemorion? The dodecatemorion of a planet's position may be in a masculine sign - but then why not just say "... if the Moon is in a masculine sign..."?

As dodecatemoria are not derived from the planets but from the (their, the planet's) signs, there cannot be any problem speaking of or identifying a masculine or feminine dodecatemorion.

The sex of each dodecatemorion is the same as that one of the agreeing sign.

So the dodecatemorion of Aries is masculine as the sign of Aries, for example, and the dodecatemorion of Pisces is feminine.

johannes susato wrote:

Geoffrey wrote:And what would be "masculine" about a dodecatemorion? The dodecatemorion of a planet's position may be in a masculine sign - but then why not just say "... if the Moon is in a masculine sign..."?

As dodecatemoria are not derived from the planets but from the (their, the planet's) signs, there cannot be any problem speaking of or identifying a masculine or feminine dodecatemorion.

The sex of each dodecatemorion is the same as that one of the agreeing sign.

So the dodecatemorion of Aries is masculine as the sign of Aries, for example, and the dodecatemorion of Pisces is feminine.

I refer you to page 29 of "On the Judgement of Nativities" by Johannes Schoener, as translated by Robert Hand and reproduced in the Astrology Classics edition of Carmen Astrologicum

Geoffrey wrote:

johannes susato wrote:

Geoffrey wrote:And what would be "masculine" about a dodecatemorion? The dodecatemorion of a planet's position may be in a masculine sign - but then why not just say "... if the Moon is in a masculine sign..."?

As dodecatemoria are not derived from the planets but from the (their, the planet's) signs, there cannot be any problem speaking of or identifying a masculine or feminine dodecatemorion.

The sex of each dodecatemorion is the same as that one of the agreeing sign.

So the dodecatemorion of Aries is masculine as the sign of Aries, for example, and the dodecatemorion of Pisces is feminine.

I refer you to page 29 of "On the Judgement of Nativities" by Johannes Schoener, as translated by Robert Hand and reproduced in the Astrology Classics edition of Carmen Astrologicum

I'm sorry, Geoffrey, but without your explanation why and to what purpose you refer me to a source which I do not dispose of, your text remains inapprehensible.

Mjacob wrote:[Dodectomoira I can barely spell let alone delineate but I guess it could be useful in the birth of twins.

The purpose of dodecatemoria is indeed to differentiate within the signs by small sections.

The dodecatemoria repeat the circle of the Zodiac within each single sign, with the same order. 30 degrees being divided by 12 makes 2 1/2 degrees for each dodecatemorion.

The begin of the order is special insofar as the particular sign makes the order begin with the same dodecatemorion (d.).

For example:

the order of the d. within Aries is:
Aries at the beginning, then Taurus, &c, and Pisces at the end.

Within Taurus:
Taurus at the beginning, then Gemini, &c., and Aries at the end.

&c. . . .

Within Pisces:
Pisces at the beginning, then Aries, &c., and Aquarius at the end.

So there is a break of the zodiacal order within the oder of the dodecatemoria, leaving out the dodecatemorion of the foregoing sign at the beginning of the next sign.

Perhaps the break of the order should be demonstrated by two examples:
The last dodecatemorion in Aries is Pisces, it should be followed by Aries, but the first dodecatemorion in Tauurs is Taurus, Aries being skipped.

The last dodecatemorion in Capricorn is Sagittarius, it should be followed by Capricorn, but the first dodecatemorion in Aquarius is Aquarius, Capricon being skipped.

Thank you for your explanation and examples. A recent mystery chart on the forum was of a twin hence my interest

Regards

Matthew