Skyscript Astrology Forum

Hi Larxene

I am afraid of not understanding well your question and confusion. Which links you gave us are online calculators of bazi.

The eight words of bazi are very abstract , I am not sure can describe it in a few words , to be honest , even I don?t know the origin or meaning of bazi symbolization. It is not as astrology which can associate with the actual planets.

The eight words can be regarded as a time system, year, month ,day, and hour.

Ming

Hi Michael

As follow is found from internet: http://ctext.org/shang-shu/great-plan

??:
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Great Plan:
i. 'First, of the five elements. The first is water; the second is fire; the third, wood; the fourth, metal; and the fifth, earth. (The nature of) water is to soak and descend; of fire, to blaze and ascend; of wood, to be crooked and straight; of metal, to yield and change; while (that of) earth is seen in seed-sowing and in-gathering. That which soaks and descends becomes salt; that which blazes and ascends becomes bitter; that which is crooked and straight becomes sour; that which yields and changes becomes acrid; and from seed-sowing and in-gathering comes sweetness.'

Shang shu - Great Plan is also a very old classical work in China, and it is the one the five elements had been found firstly and completed in written work.

And another two important points are associated with five elements are

(1) Weather

(2 ) Direction

Michael Sternbach wrote: Further, I know that in Chinese astrology the planets belong to the elements in this fashion:

Mercury = water
Venus = metal
Mars = fire
Jupiter = wood (or wind)
Saturn = earth

I don?t know why Wiki or western translated five elements or bazi books ? ( however I don?t read neither western translated bazi books. May you recommend some to me? ) make such correspondence with five elements between five planets because I think they are different thing ,at the least , I don?t read a book here in Chinese especially in the old source having made such connection and I can?t find out the planets (except the Sun) motion in bazi system.

Michael Sternbach wrote: In Western astrology, the planets are corresponding with the four elements, too, and in quite a similar manner!

Venus = water
Mars = fire
Jupiter = air
Saturn = earth

I have no idea venus= water etc in western astrology Could you give me the source?

Michael Sternbach wrote:
Also, could you please tell us if the positions of the Moon and the five planets in the Solar Terms are studied in bazi, or only the position of the Sun.

Sorry, I don't know. the Solar terms refers to the position of the Sun ,that is the weather.

Ming

Michael, if you want to compare the elements with the planets, there are several approaches here. The problem is, to compare them, you need to know what you are comparing.

The first problem is comparing the four western elements with the five chinese elements. Four is not equal to five. We can add aether as the fifth western element, but...it's not there in astrology, and I have difficulty comparing aether with any other elements.

The second issue is, the chinese elements have two or three cycles that are interpreted rather literally and materially, whereas the western elements seem to be metaphysical concepts rather than concrete concepts. I believe you know what I'm talking about: the productive and destructive cycles.


Due to these issues (which may be resolvable), I propose instead to compare the quality of the planets with the elements, side-stepping the need to consider the western elemental system.



Wing Wei,

All of them are bazi calculators, which is why I want to know what YOU are referring to, specifically, when you talk about bazi.

Hi Larxene,

There are many approaches for using or interpreting bazi and most Chinese teachers regard their methods as a secret which only their students would know it.

I can tell you the most common usage nowadays which had been built in the Song Dynasty by X? Zi P?ng, that is :

(1) Use the Day heavenly stems as yourself

(2) Check the relation ( Generation or Restriction in five elements ) between the Day heavenly stems and the other pillars.

Have fun

Ming

Hi Ming and Larxene,

Michael Sternbach wrote:

Further, I know that in Chinese astrology the planets belong to the elements in this fashion:

Mercury = water
Venus = metal
Mars = fire
Jupiter = wood (or wind)
Saturn = earth

Ming replied:

I don?t know why Wiki or western translated five elements or bazi books ? ( however I don?t read neither western translated bazi books. May you recommend some to me? ) make such correspondence with five elements between five planets because I think they are different thing ,at the least , I don?t read a book here in Chinese especially in the old source having made such connection and I can?t find out the planets (except the Sun) motion in bazi system.

This quite surprises me, Ming!

According to this website:
http://users.wfu.edu/moran/planets_y_powers.html
the Chinese names for the elements and the planets are the same.

My wife (who is from Japan) confirmed to me that, in the related Japanese language the planets also bear the element names in the same order (so Jupiter is the "wood star" etc.).

The article linked above is also noteworthy for its comparison of Western with Chinese planetary hours.

Regarding your question about Western literature on Chinese astrology - Derek Walters has written some comprehensive books on Chinese astrology and related themes.

Larxene wrote:

Michael, if you want to compare the elements with the planets, there are several approaches here. The problem is, to compare them, you need to know what you are comparing.

There may be other approaches mentioned somewhere, and in this case, I would like to hear about them. The assignment I am presenting is the prevailing one in Western tradition, however. It was important in Raymond Lull's universal scheme (source: Francis A. Yates: Lull and Bruno) and also played a role in Alchemy, for example, in Ullmannus' Buch der Heiligen Dreifaltigkeit ("Book of the Holy Trinity").

It is obvious where these correspondences of the planets with the elements came from. The elements are each representing two Aristotelian principles (also called proto-elements in Alchemy). In traditional astrology, Mars is considered to be of the qualities warm and dry, like Fire; Venus is cold and moist (Water); Jupiter is hot and moist (Air); Saturn is cold and dry (Earth). See for example Al-Biruni:
http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/alb ... neral.html

The first problem is comparing the four western elements with the five chinese elements. Four is not equal to five. We can add aether as the fifth western element, but...it's not there in astrology, and I have difficulty comparing aether with any other elements.

Agreed, and I don't mean to be overly simplistic. But I do find the similarities between the Hellenistic and the Chinese assignments of the elements to the planets intriguing. Note that Jupiter's element Wood (so I have read) can also be understood as Wind (= Air). I will have to think about it more...

The second issue is, the chinese elements have two or three cycles that are interpreted rather literally and materially, whereas the western elements seem to be metaphysical concepts rather than concrete concepts. I believe you know what I'm talking about: the productive and destructive cycles.

In fact, the four elements are understood in a similar fashion like in Chinese medicine in the traditional Western medical system (based on Hippocrates and Galen). There they are synonymous with the four humors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humorism

A German Wikipedia article equivalent to this one ("Humoralpathologie") mentions explicitly that the four humors were seen as under the influence not only of the signs (by their corresponding elemental attributes) but also by the planets, according to the scheme given above.

Moreover, the Aristotelian elements are also considered to be circulating, in a fashion not unlike the Chinese. See the interesting article "The Rotation of the Elements" by John Opsopaus:
https://web.eecs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/RE.html

Michael

Hi Michael,

Thank you for your recommended book.

I know the Chinese characters or names for the five elements and the planets are the same ,but it does not mean they are the same thing !!! And five elements only use the one character (??????????not inculding another character which refers to star or planet (??

For example :

?? Gold) in Chinese Five Elements means metals or west direction or autumn and it signifies war or reformation or cutting in general, that is quite different from astrology ,where she signifies peace and love !(Venus)

By the way , the ancients in China called Venus as ????. if in the morning ( orient before the Sun and can be seen by naked eyes ) Called ? ????if setting in the west ,( occident behind the Sun and can be seen by naked eyes ) she is called ????

I indeed have no idea to associate the five elements with five planets,just because using the same name. I will read you provided me the article previously and come back to you . I think it will be very interesting topic.

And in western astrology ,the four element is also not associated to planets in such simple way.

Can we say Saturn associate with earth element ? Mars with Fire ? Mercury with water ? Jupiter with air?

I know Saturn is cold and dry, however , Saturn is not equal to the earth element itself just because using the same name in Chinese or has the similar quality as the earth element I have to say.

How about Mercury ,which is generally cold and dry , it belongs water? and you told us Venus belongs water because she is cold and moist according to your reference. How about the Moon she also is cold and moist why not she also belongs to water?

Excuse me, is there I having been misunderstanding your meaning? Because it seems you have found the fine correspondence between the planets and western four elements.

And Plato also associated the four elements with four geometric figures ,what do you think about it?

So ,I think we should be more careful about these concepts ,definitions or names.

And Bonatti said why Planets are super since they have another essence ( Bonatti on Basic astrology , tr. by Benjamin Dykes page 2) and he believed the motion of the heaven surrounding the elements changes fire and air and they change the other elements (namely water and earth ),together with ensouled and vegetative things ,and the rest of what has being under lunar circle ( and they exist in them), and things susceptible of change or alteration.(ibid Page 2-3)

note:
Fire and Air are regards as above masculine or active ( similar to Chinese Yang concept but not totally adopted). Water and Earth are regarded as below feminine passive (similar to Chinese Yin concept but not totally adopted)

Please pay attention to this phrase " Motion of heaven ", because I think Motion or Time ,is most important matter why astrology system does work !

Best Wishes

Ming

And about Yang and Yin

???????? (Tian wen xun section)
Huainanzi (2nd-century BCE) is a philosophical classic in ancient China.
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I try to interpret these old Chinese words as follow:
The universe is like chaos before created the heaven and the earth. And the light and active one raise and become the heaven , the heavy and passive one get down and become the earth. The light thing is without taking a form and be created easier and the heavy one has the fixed form which is hard to created ,hence it creates the light one firstly , and heavy latterly.
The Heaven called Yang, and the earth called Yin , Yang and Yin produce the four seasons and the four seasons produce the all things. The most hot place produces fire ,and the representative is the Sun, the most cold place produces water ,and the representative is the Moon. The Sun and the moon produces the Stars . The Sun and the moon and other Stars in the heaven and the earth or water or other elements in the Earth.

Another important concept of Yang and Yin is unity and opposites (especailly opposite), and is very similar to Hegel?s dialectics.Isn't it?

Is it interesting :-D

Hi Ming,

Your translated quote from the Huinanzi is interesting! Which chapter is it from?

I am going to study the Huinanzi in the English translation of 2010.

Also, I agree with your observation that the Yin/Yang symbolism is reflecting the Hegelian dialectic.

I found this simple but revealing explanation of the Hegelian dialectic on another forum:

Here's a 'pop-philosophy' summary. Hegel is talking about the evolution of knowledge (and/or art, which is probably why your theater arts friends are running across it). The classical understanding of science is as a linear 'building' process. We collect facts, and learn a bit about the subject, then we collect more facts, which helps us learn more, etc. Hegel argued for a radically different method of understanding, which he referred to as the 'dialectic'.

Hegel's idea was that when we start building up a theory (which he refers to as the 'thesis'), everything seems to go fine for awhile. Then, as we start delving into the implications of the theory, we find that the deeper consequences seem to contradict the basic tenets of the theory. Eventually, this leads to the development of a completely incompatible theory, even a directly contradictory theory (the 'antithesis'). Finally, we have a leap in our understanding, and create a brand-new theory that manages to combine these two apparently incompatible theories in a unique and unpredictable way (the 'synthesis'). A good example (post-Hegel, oddly enough) is the development of Newton's laws of motion into the realm of electro-dynamics in the late 19th and early 20th century, which eventually led to the synthesis of both Newton's laws and Maxwell's laws into modern quantum mechanics, which subsume those two (apparently contradictory, in several ways) systems.

In art, it's probably easier to see. Some years ago, you could have seen film reviewers turning up their noses at, say, the French 'film noir' movement, because it didn't 'follow the rules' of filmmaking. And of course, that was part of the point-the film noir creators didn't like the rules, and were striking out into something completely different and obviously incompatible with traditional movie production. But some years later, these two 'opposites' had been synthesized into a new and different mode of creation that subsumed both systems, and became its own standard. (So, of course, the rebels now have to find different things to rebel against. )

That's the basic gist. Hegel went on to talk about how the process can continue until everything is synthesized into one Absolute Idea, or something like that.

From http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/sho ... p?t=107611

I think, as astrologers arguing about all the different aspects of our art, we would do well to contemplate this!

Comments on your edited previous post soon to follow, Ming.

Have fun

Michael

Michael Sternbach wrote:Hi Ming,

Your translated quote from the Huinanzi is interesting! Which chapter is it from?

Tian wen xun is the chapter 3 of Huinanzi in Chinese edition. ( it means " Celestial Patterns (note 1)"or "Patterns of Heaven" if translated in English )

Note 1 : I am just finding an English translation edition ( I have no idea previously the Huinanzi had been translated into English already ) and refer with their opinion of the difference between Celestial (noun) and astronomy, I change my word expression.

http://books.google.com.tw/books?id=mhQ ... &q&f=false

It is the Chapter 3 exactly both in Chinese and English edition.

And pay attention to :

"The conjoined essences of Heaven and Earth produced yin and yang" quoted from the above book.

is better and more accurate translation than mine . Which I translated as The Heaven called Yang, and the earth called Yin is not fit in with the meaning of the original old chinese words .

Sorry for my mistake.

Hi Ming,

Now to the other part of your post.

Ming wrote: Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:21 am

I know the Chinese characters or names for the five elements and the planets are the same ,but it does not mean they are the same thing !!! And five elements only use the one character (??????????not inculding another character which refers to star or planet (??

Are you familiar with the astrological treatise by Ssu Ma Ch'ien? (A translation into English can be found in Derek Walter's book I mentioned.) This ancient author sees the planets and the elements as quite synonymous, indeed sometimes he simply uses the names of the elements for the planets; i.e. he writes ?Wood in the North, and Earth in the South?, referring to Jupiter, and Saturn, respectively.

But, of course, the elements (in the Western and in the Eastern system) are not identically the planets. They are abstractions, really, but they find expression on all levels of existence. So the planets constitute just another level of analogy to the elements.

By the way , the ancients in China called Venus as ????. if in the morning ( orient before the Sun and can be seen by naked eyes ) Called ? ????if setting in the west ,( occident behind the Sun and can be seen by naked eyes ) she is called ????

Could you translate these characters, please, for the benefit of the non-sinologist on this forum?

And in western astrology ,the four element is also not associated to planets in such simple way.

Can we say Saturn associate with earth element ? Mars with Fire ? Mercury with water ? Jupiter with air?

Yes.

I know Saturn is cold and dry, however , Saturn is not equal to the earth element itself just because using the same name in Chinese or has the similar quality as the earth element I have to say.

This attribution is not of my own making. It was introduced, as far as I know, by Raymond Lull, one of the great universal scholars in human history. Given the Aristotelian qualities of the planets, it was a logical conclusion.

How about Mercury ,which is generally cold and dry , it belongs water?

Mercury is regarded as being of ?mixed qualities? by most traditional authors, so he could not represent any element. Although I think he could be seen as representing the Quintessence, or Ether. Only Bonatti describes Mercury as having an ?earthy? character, as far as I know.

Yes, in the Chinese system he belongs to Water, this doesn't seem to agree with the ?Western? system.

and you told us Venus belongs water because she is cold and moist according to your reference. How about the Moon she also is cold and moist why not she also belongs to water?

The Moon certainly also has a strong connection to Water! Several authors call her cold and moist, even though Al-Biruni calls her only moist. But already in ancient times, she was not really considered as a planet but as one of the Luminaries. I think, this may be the reason for not including her and the Sun in this scheme.

And Plato also associated the four elements with four geometric figures ,what do you think about it?

This does not enter astrological tradition, as far as I know. Platon actually also included the Quintessence, and attributed the five regular polyhedrons (called the Platonic bodies) to the five elements then. In his Timaios, the elementary ?atoms? everything consists of have their shapes. This theory seems to be rather of historical interest only, but interestingly, in modern quantum physics, there is a concept called ?Loop Quantum Gravity? which assumes that space itself consists of very small units which could have such shapes. Moreover, the Platonic bodies continue to play a central role in what is called Sacred Geometry.

And Bonatti said why Planets are super since they have another essence ( Bonatti on Basic astrology , tr. by Benjamin Dykes page 2) and he believed the motion of the heaven surrounding the elements changes fire and air and they change the other elements (namely water and earth ),together with ensouled and vegetative things ,and the rest of what has being under lunar circle ( and they exist in them), and things susceptible of change or alteration.(ibid Page 2-3)

Bonatti was using the Aristotelian cosmological scheme in which all the celestial bodies are eternal and consist of Ether. But I think this only looks like a contradiction, because, I mentioned before, the planets were never really seen as the same as the terrestrial elements, they are just analogous to them. Likewise, as you certainly know, the signs of the zodiac were thought of as belonging to the elements, at least since Valens.

Best wishes
Michael

Hi, Michael,

Thank you for your patience and detailed replies!

I had no idea of Shi-Ji (Records of the Grand Historian) included the astrology ,but when I checked the source , it indeed!:'

More and more interesting. Thank you.

??(tai bai),??(qi ming),??(chang geng). I just want to let you know Venus has different names in Chinese.

You can refer with this website:
http://www.cwb.gov.tw/V7e/knowledge/enc ... /as006.htm

quote from the above website:

"... when Venus is to the west of the Sun it will appear on the eastern horizon before sunrise. In ancient times, it was regarded as a morning star and was called "Qi Ming"(???. When Venus moves to the east of the Sun, it will appear on the western horizon after sunset. The ancient people regarded it as an evening star and called it "Chang Geng"????. ..."

Best Wishes

Ming

Hi Michael,

Thank you for your information and I just copy the contents which are selected from ??? ????(chi ji ,tian guan shu ) and refer to the relation between the five elements and five planets.

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

??????????????????????????????????????????????

And take a note :

Saturn : ??(an ancient name of Saturn) ?be called the middle or center earth ( the direction ) , the last month of the summer (season)

Jupiter: ?? ( an ancient name of Jupiter ),called the eastern wood (the direction), the spring ( season)

Mars: ?? ( an ancient name of Mars), called the southern fire (the direction) ,the summer (season)

Venus: ??? an ancient name of Venus), called the western metal (the direction) ,the fall or autumn (season)

Mercury: ???an ancient name of Mercury), called the northern water ( the direction), the winter (season)