Skyscript Astrology Forum

Michael Sternbach wrote:Great, Margherita!

Do you know any other Medieval or Renaissance astrologers who were using Equal?

no, I don't remember anybody. Not It seems to me Cardano's mortal enemy Luca Gaurico used Regiomontanus.

Examples of charts where Cardan uses equal house can be seen from p.51 onwards of this file:

http://skyscript.co.uk/cardan_first.pdf

This is an extract from Cardan's Seven Segments, translated by V.Livina & A.Grigoryev, 2009. Mark, you should find the editorial comments on pp.6-7 interesting with regard to the influence of Firmicus.

Also, this Google Book link shows Morin's remarks about Cardans use of equal house, and why Morin thought it wasn't descriptive of Cardan's nativity.

I'm sure I read Cardan's description of his own nativity years ago, and that he dwelt upon how aptly the 12th house Moon described him. So now I am confused about this, because by equal house it's an 11th house Moon.

Deb wrote:
I'm sure I read Cardan's description of his own nativity years ago, and that he dwelt upon how aptly the 12th house Moon described him. So now I am confused about this, because by equal house it's an 11th house Moon.

Nothing strange. Just he switched system in the second part of his life, maybe after having read the new translation of Tetrabiblos during his travel in Scotland.

Thanks Margherita, just what I was looking for - can you give me the source for those two charts? Were they both published by Cardan himself?

Deb wrote:Thanks Margherita, just what I was looking for - can you give me the source for those two charts? Were they both published by Cardan himself?

Generally I go to the work late so I had all the time to search it.

Both from Cardano. The first one is from De exempliis centum geniturarum, the second from Ptolemei IIII De Astrorum Iudiciis (1554 edition)

margherita

Margherita wrote:

Nothing strange. Just he switched system in the second part of his life, maybe after having read the new translation of Tetrabiblos during his travel in Scotland.

Here is Cardano?s chart in modern style:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Cardan,_Jerome

Cardano seems to have travelled to Scotland in 1552 to offer medical assistance for the Bishop of St Andrews.

http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk ... ardan.html

Cardano appears to have travelled to England before returning to Italy later in 1552 and met with the English astronomer, mathematician, astrologer and occultist John Dee:

http://psychicinvestigator.com/Occult/Dee.htm

So I wonder if Dee was an influence on Cardano changing his thinking on house systems? It certainly would be fascinating to know what these two great renaissance figures discussed. There are some intriguing suggestions on this in the link above.

Mark

The influence of the leading mathematician, and astronomer Johannes M?ller of K?nigsberg, Bavaria (aka Regiomontanus derived from K?nigsberg ie ?King's Mountain?) (1436 ? 1476) was clearly immense from the late 15th until the end of the 17th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regiomontanus

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... iomontanus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6nigsberg_in_Bayern

It was evident by this period that older astronomical tables such as the Alfonsine and the Toledan Tables were seriously outdated and contained substantial errors. Regiomontanus was a prolific compiler of tables and ephemerides and offered astronomers and astrologers much needed revised tables. While he did not live to produce tables of his own, he did issue almanacs and calendars from his press in Nuremberg. The calendars included the times of new and full moons and eclipses for the years 1475-1531; the almanacs gave mean planetary positions, true positions for the sun and moon, and eclipse times for 1475-1506. Both were extremely popular, and an edition of the almanacs was used by Christopher Columbus.

The Tabulae directionum, produced with the assistance of the Polish astrologer Martin Bylica, were primarily for astrological use and seem to have been correspondingly extremely popular: they were first printed in 1490, and went through eleven editions up to 1626. In addition to tables for calculating horoscopes, the collection included a table of the declination of the sun for every degree of longitude in the ecliptic, and introduced, probably for the first time in the Latin West, a table of tangents.

http://www.hps.cam.ac.uk/starry/regioastrol.html

http://www.hps.cam.ac.uk/starry/regiotables.html

Regiomontanus proposed his house system as the ?rational house system? and believed he had revived the method proposed by Ptolemy. As we have seen above astrologers throughout history have repeatedly sought to recruit Ptolemy as the inspiration for their favoured house system.

Numerous factors seem to help explain why the Regiomontanus system quickly established itself as the predominant house system in Europe from the 16th century onwards:

1 The intellectual status of Regiomontanus as amongst the greatest mathematicians and astronomers of his era.

2 His production of more accurate astronomical information for astrologers,

3 The production of up to date tables of houses for the Regiomontanus system. Something often lacking for other quadrant systems of the time.

4 The philosophical rationale that this was the system of Ptolemy himself.

5 The fact that Regiomontanus established a printing press in Nuremberg which published in numerous editions the arguments and tables for his house system across Europe. Hence the ideas of the system were being circulated long after Regiomontanus himself had died.

Earlier quadrant systems that held sway in the medieval period such as Alcabitius were eclipsed.

This whole change mirrors what happened in the late 17th to early 19th century in England where Placidus houses gradually replaced Regiomontanus as the most popular house system. No need to go over the history of that here as Martin Gansten has written an informative article on that specific issue:

www.martingansten.com/pdf/WorsdaleOxley2011.pdf

Margherita thank you for providing the source of both charts. I never knew about the first, drawn in equal house.

I think you are right about the combination of factors Mark, and possibly the better accessibility to Regiomontanus tables. It is in his autobiography that Cardan talks about the relevance of his Moon in the 12th and Sun in the 6th, and he says there that he published it in his commentary on Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos. It is impossible to read his autobiography and not expect the Moon to be in the 12th rather than the 11th, as Morin suggests. Cardan dwells upon how unfortunate and luckless it is, and how it accurately depicts his life and character traits. Even from before he was born; since his mother tried various ways to abort him. He characterises himself as a very unpleasant man, full of faults, with few friends and many enemies. He delights when he talks about living long enough to see the downfall of his many personal rivals.

Perhaps when he was younger, he wanted to be able to identify with an 11th house Moon; but as he reflected on his life as an older man, it seems he had no doubt that the quadrant division described him better.

I am really fond of Cardan, because of his autobiography. Although he often makes himself out to be odious, the story about how he desperately tried - in vain - to save his son from execution is heartbreaking. It really is worth the read for anyone with an interest in astrology and medieval culture. (Would make a better drama than the Borgias IMO )

Deb wrote:....

Perhaps when he was younger, he wanted to be able to identify with an 11th house Moon; but as he reflected on his life as an older man, it seems he had no doubt that the quadrant division described him better.

...

But why would he(and Morin) choose to ignore the effect of partile square of mars (lord of the 12th and 7th ,on the Moon (as mentioned in the footnote of AG 17 translation) ?

PD

Only Morin omitted to reference this, not Cardan. He describes how Mars casts an evil influence on each luminary, and especially the Moon because of the square. The footnote observation to Morin's work, that even by equal house "the indications were actually more bad than good" doesn't come close to the sorrowful account that Cardan gives of his own temperament as reflected in his nativity. He is ugly, sickly, full of vices, lustful, jealous, held back, vengeful, and very arrogant because he knew he was a genius and supremely intelligent. (He had a lot of resentment about the fact that he was born illegitimate, and so was often denied positions that he felt should have been his).

He obviously refers to Ptolemy's rules when he refers to the square of Mars to the 12th house Moon as one of the reasons why he says "consequently, I ought to have been a monster; and indeed was so near it that I came forth, literally torn from my mother's womb".

Michael Sternbach wrote:

Quote:
You mentioned Manilius describing Equal in his Astronomica awhile ago. Were you able to locate the reference? I would really appreciate it.

Mark replied:

I don?t recall doing that. If I did it was an error. I clearly meant Firmicus Maternus in his Mathesis. As the Astronomica is really a poetic description of astrology its often hard to decipher what Manilius is describing in more technical areas like house systems. As I recall Deborah Houlding thinks his decription of the houses would be consistent with a space based system like Campanus. However, in a thread debating the origin of house systems a few years ago on Skyscript Chris Brennan argued the system being described was more likely to be whole sign houses.

Hi Mark,

The error is probably my own. I thought I had read something regarding Manilius and Equal not long ago, but I will need to further look for the reference. However, your comments regarding the Astronomica are interesting in their own right.

Mark wrote:

The majority of astrologers that have examined the sources seem to take the view that Whole Sign was the likely default of all the latter systems.

They are mostly basing following Robert Schmidt's interpretations, I suppose.

Its wise though to retain an open mind on the subject of house system development. Once we think we know the answers we stop asking questions.

I totally agree with you on that.

Mark wrote:

The basic truth is that Ptolemy says extremely little about houses and seems rather uninterested in using them. His exceedingly few references are rather cryptic. Different astrologers attempt to ?fill the void? with different explanations. Frequently, these theories say more about the astrologers presenting them than Ptolemy himself.

For example, as early as the 3rd century CE the astrologer Pancharius suggested in his commentary on the Tetrabiblos (Book II) that he could detect Ptolemy was using a time based system of houses. Pancharius seems to have been the first proponent of Alcabitius houses. This reminds me of the early modern astrologer Placidus de Titis (1603?1668) who thought Ptolemy was using a time based house system and proposed the house system that carries his name. In both instances these astrologers seem to have considered Ptolemy?s method of primary directions was an indicator of his preferred house system. However, there is really no logical reason why this has to be the case.

Amongst contemporary astrologers George Noonan and Benjamin Dykes have supported the notion Ptolemy was probably using equal houses ( with an idioyscratic variation starting 5 degrees before the ASC). Chris Brennan has argued Ptolemy was using whole sign houses in a short article.

I'm sure you know that in one place Ptolemy does describe Equal clearly (with the idiosyncratic variation you mention) ? however, this is in regard to a special technique, and it is ambiguous if Ptolemy would have applied this house system in general (as you say, he hardly mentions houses at all).

To my knowledge, Equal was also in use in antiquity for erecting house systems starting from a point other than the Ascendent (i.e. from the Lot of Fortune, the Sun, the Moon, the MC...) ? but, again, there may be cases where it's not clear if WSH was meant, really.

Your observations on Pancharius and Placidus are noteworthy. There doesn't seem anything to support the assumption that Ptolemy knew a time-based house system at all! These systems may have been simply inspired by the description of primary directions in the Tetrabiblos, whether their inventors were aware of it or not.

To those who would like to have some information on the astronomical foundations of many different house systems, I recommend this excellent summary:
http://www.uraniatrust.org/astrology-ar ... ouses.html

Could you give me the references for Noonan, Dykes, and Brennan, please?

Michael Sternbach wrote:

Then let's not forget that India seems to have taken over Equal from Hellenistic astrology, even though in a variation with the house cusps off-set by half a sign (to compensate for their off-set sidereal zodiac, I wonder? Just kidding... )

Mark replied:

I don?t think that is correct Michael. Ancient Indian astrology seems to have adopted Whole Sign and Porphyry houses. In the middle ages a variant on porphyry was adopted called Sripati. In Sripati the porphyry house cusps are the centre of the houses. The 20th century Indian astrologer B.V. Raman did seem to adopt an approach to equal hoses identical to the German astrologer Vehlow. However, I have yet to see any evidence confirming that approach to houses is that old in India.

All I can say at the moment, Gettings writes in the Arkana Dictionary (entry Modus Equalis):

It is recorded that this system was in use in the 3rd millenium BC in India, and it was certainly one of the methods used prior to Ptolemy's day by Greek and Roman astrologers.

It's too bad that Gettings doesn't reveal his sources on this.

Mark wrote:

I explored the topic of what I call the Raman-Vehlow equal house system in this thread on the Indian Forum:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewt ... f417db7a9e

I read the whole thread. Interesting information, thanks.

Michael

Ciao Margherita,

The Equal House System must have had a certain popularity still in Morin's time. Why would he care otherwise to refute it before any other? In this context, he writes (Astrologia Gallica, Book 17, S. 42, emphasis my own):

Among the various methods handed down by the ancients for the division of the Caelum into the astrological houses, it seems to us that this one must be particularly examined, because it was particularly cultivated by the ancients down to our times, so that Cardan strove to demonstrate the truth of astrology by 100 nativities erected in that system, and there are still some who, having scorned the truly Rational System of Regiomontanus, think that the Equal House System should be adhered to.

The (pretty long ) link is:
http://books.google.ch/books?id=SZlr29X ... ne&f=false

Interestingly, the editor mentions in footnote 3 that Morin's contemporary Nicolas de Bourdin, Marquess of Villenne, used Equal houses ? together with Cardano that makes two of them we know by name, already.

I wonder, what is known about this fellow Nicolas de Bourdin?

Michael