Skyscript Astrology Forum

Hello Pankajji

I just realized today your question about Mr Laffont's comment on Pompidou's death prediction. What happened is that many French astrologers rejected massively Gouchon's method because he did not predict the Republic President death the following years after he wrote L'Horoscope annuel simplifi?. Pompidou died of a rare blood disease early april 1974. Interestingly, there is no "interesting primary directions" (as Gouchon states) in the President's chart for 1974-1975. Gouchon rectified his chart +7 minutes.

However Gouchon answered this "question" in the same book. With other astrologers (namely Swiss astrologer Huguette Hirsig who emigrated in Quebec), in the French spoken community, Gouchon realizes that people with chronic disease will not respond to primary directions nor to transits and consequently it becomes very dificult to formulate an annual prognosis, espacially on the health level.

In fact, we realize there is one primary direction which can be difficult on the health level: Venus 90? Sun. It includes a planet in the first House and its Lord, namely the Sun. The direction is valid whether the chart is rectified or not. Under Regio, Venus is also almuten of 8th House. Other delicate direction is Saturn 0? Mercury. It involves a planet conjuncted to the Governor and Lord 6th. But these directions were "lost" in a "train" of harmonic directions, since Gouchon, following Morinus, calculated directions for all planets taken as "Significators".

Pompidou was born on july 5th, 1911, 7h30 GMT, Montboudif (FRANCE), 2E44 45N22.

Other directions worth checking might be Jupiter -> Venus and Venus -> Jupiter, Saturn -> Mercury, Mercury -> Saturn, Sun -> Jupiter, Moon -> Saturn. Valens says that these planets destroy each other because of their domicile relation. I would think the 1st - 8th derivative house connection might be stronger if almugea is involved. Mars and Venus left out because they are suicides.

carriere.francois wrote:Hello Pankajji

I just realized today your question about Mr Laffont's comment on Pompidou's death prediction. What happened is that many French astrologers rejected massively Gouchon's method because he did not predict the Republic President death the following years after he wrote L'Horoscope annuel simplifi?. Pompidou died of a rare blood disease early april 1974. Interestingly, there is no "interesting primary directions" (as Gouchon states) in the President's chart for 1974-1975. Gouchon rectified his chart +7 minutes.

However Gouchon answered this "question" in the same book. With other astrologers (namely Swiss astrologer Huguette Hirsig who emigrated in Quebec), in the French spoken community, Gouchon realizes that people with chronic disease will not respond to primary directions nor to transits and consequently it becomes very dificult to formulate an annual prognosis, espacially on the health level.

In fact, we realize there is one primary direction which can be difficult on the health level: Venus 90? Sun. It includes a planet in the first House and its Lord, namely the Sun. The direction is valid whether the chart is rectified or not. Under Regio, Venus is also almuten of 8th House. Other delicate direction is Saturn 0? Mercury. It involves a planet conjuncted to the Governor and Lord 6th. But these directions were "lost" in a "train" of harmonic directions, since Gouchon, following Morinus, calculated directions for all planets taken as "Significators".

Pompidou was born on july 5th, 1911, 7h30 GMT, Montboudif (FRANCE), 2E44 45N22.

Thanks Francois,

I tried the translation of Laffont's article but all I could gather that something was missing. It is quite reasonable argument that death from chronic disease could be a train of directions rather than a single isolated direction.

Out of curiosity, I looked at Pompidou's chart with Jyotish and Krishnamuti/Lahiri Ayanamsha- and he dies in Mercury Major and Saturn sub-period.Both these planets are maraka(planets inflicting disease/death).
Mercury being the ruler of 12th and 3rd(Sidereal Cancer Ascendant) conjunct Sun (2nd lord and maraka) both in 12th house and the sub-period of Saturn- 7th and 8th lord. The saturn sub-period started from May 1972-Jan 1975.

Saturn is in the 10th house and Pompidou died holding an Office.

Very interesting chart.

Pankaj

carriere.francois wrote:With other astrologers (namely Swiss astrologer Huguette Hirsig who emigrated in Quebec), in the French spoken community, Gouchon realizes that people with chronic disease will not respond to primary directions nor to transits and consequently it becomes very difficult to formulate an annual prognosis, especially on the health level.

Georges Pompidou http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Pompidou,_Georges

regarding the primary directions happening at the time of his death, it would be especially fascinating for some of the posters here to share their perspective on this event and the idea of primary directions having or not having any relevance based on the above quote from francois..

my question if you are unwilling to share your work with primary directions is do you also share the viewpoint of hirsig and gouchon?

thanks for the ongoing discussion on primary directions.

james_m wrote:regarding the primary directions happening at the time of his death, it would be especially fascinating for some of the posters here to share their perspective on this event and the idea of primary directions having or not having any relevance based on the above quote from francois..

my question if you are unwilling to share your work with primary directions is do you also share the viewpoint of hirsig and gouchon?

I haven't seen a lot of charts of deceased people who suffered from chronic diseases, but the ones I have seen conformed to standard patterns of fatal directions. Pompidou's 7:30 birth time is suspiciously even, so I wouldn't care to work with the chart without a proper rectification.

thanks martin,

i thought the same with regard to the 7:30am time..

carriere.francois wrote:Gouchon rectified his chart +7 minutes.

that begs the question what gouchon's rectified time for pompidou was... it is a leap to believe that the rectified time gouchon came up with for pompidou is beyond shadow of a doubt, but this is indeed what astrologers have to do all the time with the rectification work of others that isn't made publicly available for other astrologers to examine. one is left to either accept, or dismiss someone's work without being able to actually see it first hand. an advance prediction based off one's work with primary directions would go a long ways to dismissing this ongoing concern, but i don't see this happening any in the astro community.

i believe that one can see events in an accurate chart and i wouldn't make an exception as gouchon and hirsig have done myself.. however i believe midpoints are the single most unexamined consideration in all of this and generally ignored by most in the astrological community.

I looked at this chart when it was brought up, and this guy died when the Hyleg was directed through the bounds of Saturn/Leo while his years as signified by the Alcocoden were done. I don't see the need for a primary direction "hit" to show his death. He died in a Virgo profection year which is a sign without the ray of either benefic and in the stake of one malefic while containing the Lot of Death natally, and with Mars opposed to Virgo in both the nativity and the revolution and Saturn overcoming the sign in the revolution. Forgetting that there is actually many more signs of his death, even with just all of the above happening under Saturn's governship of the Hyleg, his demise shouldn't be a surprise.

Konrad wrote:I looked at this chart when it was brought up, and this guy died when the Hyleg was directed through the bounds of Saturn/Leo while his years as signified by the Alcocoden were done. I don't see the need for a primary direction "hit" to show his death.

I follow your reasoning, but given that the locus classicus of the primary direction technique is precisely Ptolemy's description of directing the hyleg to the anaereta/destroyer in Tetr. III.11 (10 in the Robbins edition), it is not surprising that people expect such hits. And in my experience they do in fact usually show up.

In the chart as it stands, I personally wouldn't trust the Sun as (the main) hyleg. But I'm interested in your views on the alcochoden: do you find that it works reliably? (I know you didn't before.) If so, I'd be glad to know what parameters you are using -- perhaps in a new thread (or privately), so as not to derail this one too much.

I am not sure if Grouchon dealt with Zodiacal parallels but with ecliptical(birthday) key and Regio houses-
Sun(1st lord) is zod.parallel Mars(4th lord) in Aug 1973.
The effect of Zod parallels last longer than usual- this would be consistent with something like a rare blood cancer.

PD

pankajdubey wrote:I am not sure if Gouchon dealt with Zodiacal parallels but with ecliptical(birthday) key and Regio houses-

Hello,

Clearly from his writings, Gouchon did not used zod. parallels nor antiscia and contra-antisca. Only zodiacal major aspects and some minors (30?, 45?, 135? and 150?). His delineations were modern, as he read Klockler and other modern German authors (certainly translated), as one may expect when he reads his Dictionary, although he was aware of traditional authors (somehow, he had access to Morin although Martin showed there was some misunderstandings). Traditional authors such as Fomalhaut (book mainly based on Ptolemae) and Haatan (mainly based on Morin), for instance, had written traditional books sometime early before hom and he must have had access to them.