Skyscript Astrology Forum

Let?s kick this around a little. Yes, I know this is hindsight astrology, but, unless we?re willing to wait anywhere from years to decades to find out if we?re right, then this is where we have to go. I?d like to look at the method with an open mind rather than nitpick it before we start. And out of necessity, this will be brief.

I selected the chart of John F. Kennedy because his last Saturn return, should it have any predictive value other than ?hard times,? it should show two things, his election as President of the United States and his death. These occurred within a three year period a little more than half way through his Saturn return cycle. I do not expect to see those two events etched indelibly into the chart. But I would expect to see some indication of honors or rise to prominence as well as death.

Birth chart:
Saturn in the 10th, particularly in detriment is said to indicate rise to prominence and fall from prominence. Hitler had it, not that JFK is comparable to Hitler in any other way. It?s just that they both fell from high leadership positions, albeit for very different reasons.

JFK?s natal Sun is on the antiscion of his MC. The Sun is also conjunct Aldebaran, and Robson gives the following for that position: courage, intelligence, eloquence, popularity and cautions that benefits seldom are long lasting plus there is the danger of violence and sickness. Little remembered today or known then that JFK was a fairly sickly youth. The MC is conjunct the fixed star Procyon: ? ? sudden elevation ending in disaster ? ? Robson

Kennedy has a loaded 8th house including the ominous Mars in detriment on the 8th cusp. The Sun is also in the 8th (Placidus) as is Venus lady of the ASC and ruler of the ASC.

So there are indications of rise to prominence and early violent death.

Saturn return
Venus is approaching the fixed star Regulus and then will go into her fall. The Return Moon, ruler of the natal MC is square natal Moon, and conjunct the Saturn Return IC (endings), and square the Saturn return ASC. Mars is on the contra antiscion of the natal ASC, which puts it on the antiscion of the natal DSC, setting. The Return Sun is on Castor: ? ? rape or murder committed or suffered. ? (Robson)

Mercury rules the natal Sun (life force) and natal Moon (career, honors). In the Saturn Return chart it is on the antiscion of the natal 8th cusp and natal Mars.

What, if anything does this tell us? With hindsight, quite a bit. It seems to tell us that within this cycle there is a strong possibility of a rise to prominence and death. I don?t think those things can be timed with the Saturn return chart, unless there is a way of directing the chart that will highlight November, 1960 to January 1961 (election and inauguration) and November 1963 (violent death). That?s more work than I care to do at the moment.

Kennedy married for the first and only time in 1953. Marriage for most of us occurs before the first Saturn return, and so would probably not stand out, if we can recognize it at all. Kennedy married later (age 36), so it might be there should anyone wish to look.

My chart has similar elements to JFK's. We're both Gemini Sun with Libra rising and Taurus Mars in the 8th house. I go by whole signs so we both have Sun in the 9th house. However, his natal chart shows that he was at least by most accounts, lacked control over his destiny.

For one, he didn't want to go into the political arena, his father pushed him into it. He also didn't want to settle down and marry, as he liked playing around. Again, his father controlled him and pushed him into it. Jackie O was handpicked to be his bride, but it was no secret about his affairs and she suffered a lot from his infidelities and wanted to divorce him, and yet she stayed in the marriage WHY? Because JFK's father paid her millions to stay in the marriage and play the beautiful, dutiful wife of a handsome and respectable president because the patriarch didn't want any scandal that would damage his family's name and JFK was the most prominent member of the family. Hey, that must be a huge indicator of Cancer Saturn in the 10th house near the MC. I suspected that he rose to fame because his Sun is in its joy- the 9th house.

I've read a lot about JFK (because I knew his chart had some similarities to mine) and even Jackie O. My personal opinion is that JFK was rather a f*ckup and he was a major liability to his father. If JFK weren't so handsome and youthful looking due to the Libra rising, he probably would NOT go any further because he was by most account, a person with average intelligence and lacked any sort of ambitious drive.


As for my chart, I've NEVER been pushed by my father nor mother in my entire life. I've always been able to do whatever I wanted, however I want it, and whenever I wanted. My parents worried about me, not because my decisions or actions could cause any shameful repercussions, but on the contrary, they thought that I was too stressed and serious for my age and wanted to see me go out and have fun. They thought I was too moral, to much of a straight arrow, and too honest. I always looked younger than my age, but I always would say the most condemning things that would throw people off, probably a combo of my Libra Saturn and Gemini Mercury. My peers thought the same about me and didn't value me for my finer exalted Saturine qualities...not until more recently when we've all been over our first Saturn's return.

Similar to JFK, I am supported by my family financially. I have practically everything paid for, and my parents put up with my shenanigans. I've drifted a lot in life, due to a lack of motivation and basically zero ambition. I travelled a lot, met a lot of different people, and overall, just got to do whatever I wanted. Before that, I was secretly married to my college sweetheart, of whom my parents were totally unaware of, as I did not bother to tell them. Unlike JFK, I am quite intelligent, as my Mercury is in dignity of Gemini- I hold 2 college degrees (BA and MS from Ivy League schools), I talk fast and can sell snow to people in Antartica. Unlike JFK, I don't sleep around and I never cheated on anyone or anything (not even a test or taxes) in my entire life. I find that sort of thing beneath my dignity. But then again, my Saturn is exalted so quite possibly that produces a better person, as I'm lead to believe.

Here's my 1st Saturn's return chart. I think I did it right. Venus is in detriment...and so was my marriage. By that time, I was already officially divorced and extremely depressed, but started to open up and talk to others about it (hence the Gemini Moon). Mercury also in detriment- that was a time when my mental energies were completely maxed out. Jupiter was in 5th house- there were a lot of strange and unattractive guys that went after me for awhile, but I had no interest nor desire to even consider dating (Jupiter square Moon, Jupiter square Venus, Jupiter opposite Mars).

I've read a lot about JFK (because I knew his chart had some similarities to mine) and even Jackie O. My personal opinion is that JFK was rather a f*ckup and he was a major liability to his father. If JFK weren't so handsome and youthful looking due to the Libra rising, he probably would NOT go any further because he was by most account, a person with average intelligence and lacked any sort of ambitious drive.

Don't know what you've been reading about him, but your description doesn't fit with a lot of known facts other than he might well have been a child of destiny. Kennedy suffered from Addison's disease (chronic adrenal insufficiency) and until the development of cortisone was a pretty sickly youth. which would account for what seemed to be a lack of ambition. He was twice, I think, given the last rites of the Roman Catholic Church at a time when that sacrament wasn't given until you were at death's door. It would have been easy for him to get out of military service during WWII and his brother was still alive when he joined. Kennedy served honorably, even heroically during the war. It is true that after his brother Joe was killed in combat that he was pushed into his career by his father who had one of the most powerful personalities ever. I'd check on the bit about Jackie being paid millions to stay with him. I would believe Joseph P pressured her.

But to bring this back to astrology, I would like to hear why you believe his chart is one of destiny. What characteristics of chart show that?

Yes, Jackie O was paid $3 million (from what I remember) which was a tremendous about of money at that time. Jackie O slyly got the go ahead from Joseph Kennedy that as long as she maintains appearances and plays her part in keeping the Kennedy power in tact, he will reward her monetarily. Jackie O went on to order many expensive haute couture garments (like Balenciaga) that ran bills up sky high and JFK was a bit nervous and annoyed by his wife's extravagance. JFK (like a good Libra rising) was worried about what the public said about the President's wife spending money like water (Jackie O was Scorpio rising after all). She did that because she slyly wanted to stick it to JFK but was not able to leave him.

As for JFK... his IQ was 119, which was from an actual IQ test that he took. That is of average intelligence (at best), but he did nothing to achieve what he achieved, which is a sham. His father orchestrated everything and JFK played along, and perhaps childhood illness was rather a tragedy, but that is no excuse for his playboy, lackadaisical ways. All his brothers tried HARD to impress their father, did everything in their powers to please JPK but they came up short. JFK was the favorite, and JPK envisioned JFK as the one to hoist the family name into permanent glory.

As for the astrology part, what makes me think his chart has more destiny than ability? Various combo of traits, but the biggest one was one you touched upon- detriment Saturn in 10th house conjunct MC. It's somewhat of a 2 part with that one. The first part is that Saturn is in the 10th house, which is an angular house- the 2nd most powerful next to the 1st house, but traditionally, it is the house of the FATHER and signifies how one rises through their paternal lineage. The second part is that the MC axis conjuncts Saturn and therefore Saturn is the most "elevated" or most visible planet in JFK's chart. The kicker is that his Saturn is in detriment- the sign of Cancer. What is the reasoning behind why Saturn is in detriment in Cancer? Same reason as why Capricorn that is ruled by Saturn is in detriment for the Moon. I look back to the natural relationships between the planets.

Saturn is perhaps the most heavy handed opponent against the luminaries and Saturn makes the luminaries dignities and exaltation as his detriments/fall. In exchange, the luminaries take Saturn's dignities and exaltation to turn them into their detriments/fall. However, Saturn's power is one of fate- of consequence. Basically speaking, Saturn makes sure you get what you "give." But that's only a small taste of the damage Saturn can do.

There is something I've learned as a child in boarding school that's called the double gypsy's curse- "May you get what you want and may you want what you get." If Saturn was personified, he'd say that for sure.

From where I'm standing, and it could be a combo of what I read from Valens and my own interpretation, Saturn is literally the worst planet to have in detriment/fall simply because Saturn is easily able to cripple the other planets and thus, ruin the chart. All the efforts and abilities a person put forth can amount to nothing or shame/disgrace if Saturn is poorly positioned. If Saturn is in dignity or exaltation, he can elevate the chart and the planets that he touches. But if Saturn is in detriment or fall, he will bring misery and ruin upon the chart and whatever planets he touches. Saturn was not given the title of the Greater Malefic (Lesser Malefic is Mars) for nothing.

Anyway, JFK's Cancer Saturn on the MC and in 10th house signifies to me that any prestige he had was NOT earned, but it came about through his father. The reason for his fall was because the prestige he earned was not his own, and so when he fell, he fell alone. His father was not there to protect him, and thus, Saturn did his part in JFK's chart.

Furthermore, speaking of the Kennedy curse...I would say it's rooted in JPK's chart. He had Leo Saturn (also detriment) in the 11th house- the house of gains. What JPK sought to establish and gain, through power and manipulation, through regal appearances (like JFK winning the election because he was handsome and Nixon was sweating like bullets in a televised debate), and the finest that his vast money could buy- it died with his sons' early deaths.

but traditionally, it [the 10th house] is the house of the FATHER and signifies how one rises through their paternal lineage.

I'm not sure what tradition you refer to, but in Western traditional astrology the father, family and ancestry are 4th house. The tenth is traditionally the mother when she needs to be differentiated from the father otherwise she is part of the ancestry. Modern astrologer reversed this because of the planet = sign = house beliefs. Ptolemy included children in the 10th, but to my knowledge that aberration wasn't followed by anyone else. If Valens put the father in the tenth, he is in the minority.

Kennedy's Saturn in detriment in the tenth would be a red flag for rapid fall from power. A murder will do that for you, and if the Saturn return chart has validity, the potential should be shown in this chart.

If you're going to argue that Saturn in the 10th and conjunct the MC makes a person more fated than most, I can see it a little, but would expect a lot more in the chart to validate the delineation.

As for what, if anything, Joseph P paid Jackie and the other anecdotes and opinions, they are pretty far off topic. The topic is whether or not a Saturn return chart is useful or is the timing of the Saturn return by itself enough? Let's stick to that.

As an FYI 2/3 of the population scores between 85 and 115 on IQ tests. Above 115 is above average and no psychologist worth his salt would bank on a single IQ test as the sole determination of intelligence. The test taker could be having a very good or a very bad day or not paying attention all that much. But anyone's opinions of Kennedy's intelligence or accomplishments, real or imagined, are not part of the topic unless the events, regardless of what they show or what we think of them, are related to the return chart.

Tom wrote:

but traditionally, it [the 10th house] is the house of the FATHER and signifies how one rises through their paternal lineage.

I'm not sure what tradition you refer to, but in Western traditional astrology the father, family and ancestry are 4th house. The tenth is traditionally the mother when she needs to be differentiated from the father otherwise she is part of the ancestry. Modern astrologer reversed this because of the planet = sign = house beliefs. Ptolemy included children in the 10th, but to my knowledge that aberration wasn't followed by anyone else. If Valens put the father in the tenth, he is in the minority.

Kennedy's Saturn in detriment in the tenth would be a red flag for rapid fall from power. A murder will do that for you, and if the Saturn return chart has validity, the potential should be shown in this chart.

If you're going to argue that Saturn in the 10th and conjunct the MC makes a person more fated than most, I can see it a little, but would expect a lot more in the chart to validate the delineation.

As for what, if anything, Joseph P paid Jackie and the other anecdotes and opinions, they are pretty far off topic. The topic is whether or not a Saturn return chart is useful or is the timing of the Saturn return by itself enough? Let's stick to that.

As an FYI 2/3 of the population scores between 85 and 115 on IQ tests. Above 115 is above average and no psychologist worth his salt would bank on a single IQ test as the sole determination of intelligence. The test taker could be having a very good or a very bad day or not paying attention all that much. But anyone's opinions of Kennedy's intelligence or accomplishments, real or imagined, are not part of the topic unless the events, regardless of what they show or what we think of them, are related to the return chart.

If modern astrology uses the formula of planet= sign= house belief than wouldn't the 10th house be the father still?

I don't remember if Valens used 10th house as the father, but that's how I was taught by a retired traditional astrologer about 8 years ago. Perhaps it is rooted in Vedic astrology. It doesn't matter, I never agreed with 4th house as the father and 10th as the mother because it didn't fit in from the context of when astrology was set up. People from long, long, long ago were deeply patriarchal. Even up to 50 years ago people were still very patriarchal. For as prominent and prestigious as the 10th house is, in addition to it representing high noon to be the most elevated placement of the chart, it would only make sense that any of the diurnal and masculine planets should be more at home (Sun, Saturn, Jupiter) and those planets all represent the Father on some levels. The mother would be in the 4th as that's the dead of midnight and most charts have the IC housed there, which is to represent the origins of the chart...something hidden and deeply intimate.

JFK took that IQ test during his time and in comparison to what the scores were like at that time, he scored average. How would you know he took it only once? That could have been the last time he took the test and that was the score that was kept on file. He was of average intelligence which is not surprising, so what of it? Psychologists can assess IQ tests are an accurate measurement of someone's intelligence if results lead them to that conclusion based upon their professional analysis whether you think they're "worth their salt" or not.

Let's be clear here. I never "argued" for anything. I wrote what I thought on JFK and then you asked me to expand on why I thought what I did. I added some other information about JFK but that was only used to further illustrate that JFK was not well equipped to being in the limelight going from being a playboy who had lacked ambition to being President with a wife who resented him and did passive aggressive things to get under his skin. That shows that JFK did not have his ducks in order if he couldn't control his own wife. The fact that JPK, the father who not only picked for Jackie O to be the President's bride, had to pay for the bride to stay in the marriage to avoid a family scandal, clearly shows that JFK couldn't even have his home life under control. And if we have to get into his politics of the Bay of Pigs fiasco, that's another monster of which JFK was also extremely ill-equipped to handle.

You're getting a bit touchy about the topic of JFK and is rather defensive of him. No need to turn the tables on me just because I wrote things you didn't know/didn't like about JFK. I kept on topic when I casted my Saturn's return chart and talked about what I do know for sure- me. You ignored that and asked me about JFK and I answered. Don't turn around and blame me for setting the topic slightly off course just because I didn't give you answers you wanted to see.

The Father is the 9th house.

As mentioned before, my natal Saturn, ruler of Mars L1 in the 3d and of the 4th house, is sitting on my Scorpio ascendant. So the idea of a Saturn-return chart ofcourse appealed to me.

In my (2nd) S-return, Saturn rules the ascendant, and is posited on the cusp of the 9th (Placidus houses), one degree conjunct the PF, and then there is Venus ruler of natal Sun and Mercury ruler of natal Moon, all together with NN, all in Scorpio in the 9th house of the return.
Jupiter, nataly positioned in Cancer-9, is retro in the 4th in Gemini (conjunct Aldebaran).
Moon is - as in the nativity - in Virgo, but on cusp 8 of S-return.

This Moon I can recognise in quite a lot of stress and anxiety since Saturn entered Scorpio, mainly regarding health, but all the other positions nicely reflect the fact that hubby and I just last month acquired a "finca" in Andaluc?a, Spain: the fulfillment of a joint dream...
If life were perfect then Mars (natal L1) wouldn't be in the 12th of this S-return, but just as in my natal it 's in mutual reception with Saturn here, so things about health may work out fine after all.

One other thing: Pluto in the S-return, is exactly on my natal ascendant. I guess shifting from one's natal country to another one, having to learn also another speak, might cause enough turbulence to account for this Pluto-transit...

Saturnhead wrote:The Father is the 9th house.

Father's DNA is the 9th because it's 5th (children) from the Asc. 10th is your Father's impact on your life.

Saturnhead wrote:

Saturnhead wrote:The Father is the 9th house.

Father's DNA is the 9th because it's 5th (children) from the Asc. 10th is your Father's impact on your life.

Yes, thank you. 10th house is the legacy that one gets from the father. That's what I was talking about but I used short cuts when describing about how the 10th house is linked with the father. I thought most people would know what I'm talking about it, but apparently not.