Skyscript Astrology Forum

Hi Martin,

I think you're right supposing that the conceptualization of moira by Schmidt and Hand led to the notion that degrees were used as discrete units, but besides their philosophical assumptions there is virtually no textual evidence in favour of this. The only exception I know about where individual degrees are really regarded as discrete units is the monomoiria of Paulus, but I think this is an isolated case.

Thanks, Levente. Knowing your familiarity with the Hellenistic astrological corpus, I'm happy to take your word for it. And yes, the monomoiria would be a special case, of course.

Martin, I don't conflate theory and practice. They are clearly different. And to affirm LL's point, we just don't see a lot of textual evidence for the latter.

Speaking of Firmicus Maternus (Bram transl.), in I:iii he challenges astrology's critics who argue that "no one can get definite results because of the smallness of the degrees and minutes...." But he doesn't actually refute the "impossibility of definitive measurements"-- he sidesteps this issue to assail the critics on other grounds.

In 2:iv he talks about fine divisions of the decans, supposedly influential in sudden accidents and illnesses, but then leaves it by saying "But of this part of the doctrine, we must of necessity pass over in this book. The Greeks also, who tried to reach the secrets of that theory, stopped at the first stage and left the subject with a certain reluctance." Bram (note 27) thought the source was a Hermetic writing.

This may be too slender a straw, but FM's comment reminded me of Valens's obvious impatience with some writings attributed to Petosiris as too cryptic and mystical to be of much use in chart interpretations.

In the myriogenesis section VIII: xviii (attributed to the Chaldean Sphaera Barbarica) we learn about somebody using individual minutes, but it wouldn't seem to be Firmicus Maternus.

Then we get into some tricky problems, because the predictions based on rising degree alone are apt to contradict the interpretations of the native's life based upon other calculations. Probably this is why FM concludes VIII:xxxii that we have to look at the chart as a whole.

The lengthy section on specific degrees rising and setting is based upon fixed star positions (VIII:iv,) including stars off the ecliptic. Interestingly, FM clusters 2-3 degrees within particular parts of constellations, and attributes this system to Nechepso. This material echoes the II:iv section on using specific degrees to identify illnesses.

What also shines throughout FM and particularly in his conclusion to book 8, is that this is sacred knowledge, not to be divulged to the profane "In this way we shall not pollute the revered theories of the ancients...."

I'd conclude that astrology cookbook authors indeed took some material as theoretical-- and of a religious nature; and some material as having practical utility for chart interpretations. The individual degree meanings most likely to have been in use were those associated with particular fixed stars.

Of course, the ephemeris would have served FM well for planetary degree positions.

It would be interesting to go through FM's 4 charts, which indicate outcomes for the person's life, to see whether they hook up with plausible degrees and their given Chaldean degree meanings.

I realize that my above comments do not address the question of where a particular degree stops and starts; but I hope I've indicated that Firmicus Maternus and Vettius Valens, at least, as practitioners, weren't really occupied with this question.