A few quick comments in no particular order:

1. The easiest way to get a correct chart for Morin is, with software that allows for that option, to enter the time 8:33 LAT (not LMT). That will take care of the seasonal difference automatically.

2. Deb seems to be right that Morin didn't know of a sign-house system, or he would almost certainly have rubbished it (as he did with the equal-house system) in Book 17 (translated by Holden, published by AFA).

3. I have to differ from Deb, though, on the matter of the location used for revolutions: Morin was adamant (above all, in Book 23) that only the place where the native happened actually to be at the time of the revolution should be used, even if he/she was living somewhere else. This is because Morin took a causal and 'naturalistic' view of astrology: at the time of the revolution, the planetary positions imprinted their results on the native wherever he/she was.

4. Anyone interested in Morin's view on transits and how they relate to other techniques should read Book 24 (again, Holden/AFA), most of which (>80 pages) is about transits and what Morin called syzygies (that is, transiting planets configured with each other without reference to any positions in the radix, etc).

3. I have to differ from Deb, though, on the matter of the location used for revolutions: Morin was adamant (above all, in Book 23) that only the place where the native happened actually to be at the time of the revolution should be used, even if he/she was living somewhere else. This is because Morin took a causal and 'naturalistic' view of astrology: at the time of the revolution, the planetary positions imprinted their results on the native wherever he/she was.

You'd be right then Martin, because I didn't know that. Thanks for correcting me.

These are the two pages of the 1660 biography that discuss the astrological signatures of his death. If you click on the image it expands:

1. The easiest way to get a correct chart for Morin is, with software that allows for that option, to enter the time 8:33 LAT (not LMT). That will take care of the seasonal difference automatically.

Solar Fire does not offer an option for LAT (Local Apparent Time) on its list of time zones on the drop down menu, but if you type LAT in the appropriate box it will calculate it properly. I use this for Worsdale's charts and the resultant charts work out almost identically to his (insignificant minor differences at most)

You can do the same thing with Delphic Oracle. LAT is not listed, but it can be typed in. Janus offers the option on its drop down menu.

Thanks so much to Deborah for bringing all this exciting stuff up. I had been using 8:33 LAT, as Martin and Tom indicate (using Solar Fire), which gives an ascendant of 27Ar29.

Here is a translation of the French biography from 1660 that Deborah posted:

"We now reach the last of our reflections, which is the most important of all. Monsieur Morin died on the sixth day of November in the year 1656, and we cannot be content with simply asking if his death was marked out in that great book which determines the good or bad destiny of men under God's providence. Rather, we enquire if he himself had recognised it, if he had read something of it in these celestial characters; and I have already taken an affirmative position on this, and I will not unsay myself here, having in hand the original documents from which it is easy for me to convince those who might doubt what I have said about this.

Above the revolution of this year, in the place where on others he wrote only "revolutio solis", he wrote "status coeli undequaque pessimus vitaque meae periculosissimus" [the state of the sky everywhere for the worst and for my life most dangerous]; and alongside the figure describing the direction, which subsequently killed him, "a longo tempore timui directionem istam" [for a long time have I feared this direction].

And this unfortunate direction was that of Mars Lord of the radical horoscope in opposition to the Moon, [Mars] that Saturn has wounded by his opposition, and which in consequence can only signify mortal diseases: which finds confirmation in the solar revolution, where the horoscope falls on the cusp of the eighth of the radical, with the heart of the Scorpion, and the cusp of the eighth is [on] the radical place of Mars, which is diverging from the radical horoscope and applying to the square with the Moon, Lady of the eighth of the revolution, and from there passes to the opposition of the part of fortune."

The addition of "[Mars] wounded by Saturn" is needed in English, not in French, where the masculine "bless?" could not refer to the Moon.
The directions do indeed seem to fit, particularly with Regio/Ptolemy or Placidus/Naibod (Solar Fire):
Regio/ Naibod : Sa > opp Mars March 1652, ; Moon > opp Mars Jan 1657 (i.e. classical converse direction of Mars to Moon)
Regio/Ptolemy : April 1651 and December 1655 respectively
Placidus/Naibod: September 1650 and April 1655
Placidus/Ptolemy: September 1649 and April 1654

Graham

There seems to be an error at the end of the French text: after squaring the degree of SR Moon, the SR Mars (which will just have passed a sextile to natal Mars) will move to a conjunction, not an opposition, with the natal PF.
I think the relocated (Paris) SR, which Morin would have used, looks more convincing than the one for Villefranche, as Paris has the SR PF partile conjunct to natal North Node, the SR MC being square to those, and trine to SR North Node.
Graham

Just a quick comment as I'm babysitting tonight, but wanted to let you know how grateful I am for you translating the text for us Graham. Big thanks!

Martin is doubtless right that Morin would have disapproved of whole sign houses had he known of them (though he might have liked the natal Venus in 12 by whole signs - in Regio, Venus is in 11 unless the 5? rule is applied).

I find the charts much easier to read in whole signs (I use the Equal settings in Solar Fire, to line up the horizon as in Morinus etc, but think whole signs). You miss the conjunction of SR Asc with radical Regio 8th cusp (it's in radical 9 by WS), but you get a tighter conjunction with the WS "sensitive point" (equal cusp) of SR 8 with natal Mars than you do with the Regio 8th cusp.

I know mixing techniques is often frowned upon, but I can't help noticing that the Paris SR has Mars a partile quincunx from its Asc (i.e. Mars throws a sinister aspect of 8 on Asc), and the NN trines its MC (throws a sinister aspect of 9). These are recognised "full aspects" for Mars and Rahu in Indian astrology (most Western aspects are not).

Graham

(though he might have liked the natal Venus in 12 by whole signs - in Regio, Venus is in 11 unless the 5? rule is applied).

Morin said he didn't approve of the 5 degree rule then he equivocated. His point was that the house begins with the cusp - period, but he allowed for influence of a planet whose position was prior to the cusp. He argued that the planet's orb would spill over (my metaphor not his) to the next house and the planet would have influence in that house.

Thanks Tom for clarifying. I think the 5? rule looks a bit like trying to have things both ways...

I realised that I checked the primary directions using parallax moon. According to Denis Labour?, who has worked and written extensively on Morin in France, Morin "advocated parallax without actually practising it" (perhaps because of complexity of calculation). Indeed, in Book 23 of AG, on Revolutions, Morin stresses that the person in the place, not the place itself or or the earth as a whole, receive the influxes of the stars, which are determined "by their relation to the horizon where the person actually is", which is why he advocates relocating the SR. The principle of parallax would seem to be implicit in this. (Bk 23, pp.9-11, Holden translation)

And in fact the radix that Morin gives has a moon closer to parallax than to no parallax (Morin: 17:0 ; Parallax: 17:05 ; no parallax (as generated by SF and used by Deborah): 16:48.

Whether this was an attempt at parallax or just a slight margin of error, who knows. But I notice that the directions mentioned in the 1660 book (Regio/ Naibod) without parallax fit best:
Saturn > opp Mars Feb 1652
Moon > opp Mars late Aug 56

Graham

wolfgang - are you able to generate a chart to show the pds you have calculated? please do so if you are able to. thanks

here is morins chart in regio using solar fire.. you can see how i have jiggled the time to get the 27 aries 17 ascendant.. note that the midheaven doesn't match the one given in deb or morins example on debs link in her first post. i get 13 cap 05 using solar fire for the midheaven..


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here is the relocated 1656 solar return with regio houses to paris off the above chart data.


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here is a biwheel with natal on the inside and sr56 on the outside.. it's helpful to look at the biwheel in the reverse order too.. one can quickly see the 150 between mars and ascendant in the sr 1656 paris chart that graham mentions..

graham, thanks for translating the text.. this paragraph from your translation is seen fairly quickly using the biwheel chart down below..

"And this unfortunate direction was that of Mars Lord of the radical horoscope in opposition to the Moon, [Mars] that Saturn has wounded by his opposition, and which in consequence can only signify mortal diseases: which finds confirmation in the solar revolution, where the horoscope falls on the cusp of the eighth of the radical, with the heart of the Scorpion, and the cusp of the eighth is [on] the radical place of Mars, which is diverging from the radical horoscope and applying to the square with the Moon, Lady of the eighth of the revolution, and from there passes to the opposition of the part of fortune." for what it is worth - none of this changes using a number of other house systems, but regio is used here to highlight what morin was looking at.. i don't see the direction of mars lord of the radical horoscope in opposition to the moon in wolfgang or my own pds generated in the file pic i shared earlier.


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