tom,

you are easily puzzled, lol..

the way my solar fire is set, i need to enter the actual time and the actual place, as opposed to entering long and lat coordinates... like thus below..


imagen

if i could do it with the info you gave me i would have, but unless i go in and figure out how to do it by changing the settings i have - that is how i do it.. be puzzled no more!

donna chang - i agree with you..

The fact that a slightly earlier or later time would make the difference suggests that maybe some quality of the rising degree affirmed his judgment?

La Volasfera is fairly negative about 16 Sagittarius, describing "an isolated and lonely mind," and "a life of great vicissitudes and hardships," but it seems more like the description of a victim than the instigator. The neighboring degrees are scarcely better.

Charubel's description of 16 Sagittarius is reasonably benign, but interestingly the symbolism for 15 is very nasty indeed. "A person entering a dark tunnel: He or she having this degree on the ascendant will go wrong in life. If there be no saving influences in operation. A most unfortunate and hopeless degree this. " If Knegt's calculations gave a different result than our computers for some reason, could this description have been the deciding factor in an otherwise uncertain judgment?

Tom - have just uploaded the PDF file that has Smit's report of Leo Knegt's chart readings:

Leo Knegt - a White Crow beyond our Wildest Dreams?
by Rudolf H. Smit
http://skyscript.co.uk/LeoKnegtfinal8.pdf

Here is another copy of the chart in Regiomontanus - the link below will open a much larger image so that its details can be read more clearly.
http://skyscript.co.uk/im/k3.jpg

(Copying this over so the links and chart remain visible n this new page)

Tom - have just uploaded the PDF file that has Smit's report of Leo Knegt's chart readings:

Leo Knegt - a White Crow beyond our Wildest Dreams?
by Rudolf H. Smit
http://skyscript.co.uk/LeoKnegtfinal8.pdf

Here is another copy of the chart in Regiomontanus - the link below will open a much larger image so that its details can be read more clearly.
http://skyscript.co.uk/im/k3.jpg
I don't think it is possible to be confident about his logic without seeing the chart in the house system he used. I don't understand 'the Ram system' at all, so what follows refers to the Regiomontanus example and can only offer a suggestion for the type of logic that could be used on a chart like this. I am bearing in mind that Knegt was an expert in horary, so it would have been natural for him to use the traditional approach towards significators on house cusps, even in natal charts, as I do.

This is subject three in the paper, who the tester described as being "A fantastic fraud, Swindler, charlatan". Knegt's assessment is said to focus almost solely on the element of being a fraudster, and some details sre given on p.14 of the PDF file:

? ...One tends to rely on this person?s honest face and too quickly believing his treacherous propositions, thus there is every possibility of tremendous fraud, hence out right swindle!..."

? However, perhaps death makes an un expected end to all in justice. It is in deed certain that his life will terminate under very obscure or scary circumstances. Death will release him from misery but will bring suffering to others..." [The man committed suicide, which brought in describable financial suffering to others].

[He notices that if the birthtime of this subject had been a few minutes earlier, certain very negative character traits would have had lesser chance to develop or probably would have remained dormant forever. According to Knegt, with the birth time given, or just a few minutes later, these negative traits, which all point to serious dishonesty, would have developed].

There is a mutual reception by sign between the Moon in the 2nd house and Saturn on the cusp of the 8th house, the Moon (8th-ruler) lacking any kind of dignity and Saturn (2nd-ruler) being in its sign of detriment - so straightaway, financial problems and corruptions in affairs involving other people's money are highlighted.

The emphasis on Saturn is increased by its square to the Libran MC, which has Mars prominently placed upon it. Mars is also in detriment and acts as the ruler of the 12th house, so the expression of his professional activities are dominated by deceit and trouble.

Libra is the sign of the charmer, but when a debilitated Mars is afflicted within this sign and acting as a main significator in the chart, it shows someone who is superficially charming but lacking integrity. The man has an honest-looking face - Moon in trine to asc-ruler Jupiter in Libra (but Jupiter is afflicted by conj with Uranus, so he is not reliable). Jupiter's dispositor is Venus, which also squares the Libran MC and Mars upon it, emphasising the ability to charm and be persuasive, but Venus is also conjunct the 8th house cusp, again showing his intentions are tied to matters concerning other people's money. The assessment of the 8th-house concerns as being "treacherous", and the probability of deceit and lies are also seen in the placement of Mercury in the 8th, peregrine, combust the Sun, retrograde and on the square of Neptune.

The chart is striking because of the placement of Mars within 5? of the MC - which would be lost if the chart had been cast a few minutes earlier, regardless of which house system was being used. It would also affect the placement of planets on house cusps, which is something that someone with a lot of experience in horary cannot fail to take notice of.

The same negative 8th-house associations are testimonies to the unfortunate death. I wish we had information on how he killed himself, but Moon as the 8th-ruler, applying to the opposition of the Sun in the 8th, and an afflicted Mercury in the 8th with the angles afflicted by a malefic are all signatures of self-induced or violent death.

Reading on in the paper, it seems that Knegt put his emphasis on Mars on the MC in square to Venus, and in his house system Venus and Saturn were not considered to be 8th-house planets, since he describes them as being placed in the 7th house on p.6 of Smit's paper. Here he says:

That there will be a generous chance of swindle is indicated by both Sun and Mercury, Ruler of 7, in Leo, and, at a later birth time, also in connection to the Horizon!!

This seems a very weak explanation of something that, in the Regiomontanus chart, has a great deal of supportive testimonies. Surely he was considering something more than the fact that 7th-ruler Mercury and the Sun were both in Leo! He many not have stated it, but I cannot believe that his interpretation did not also consider the combustion, peregrine status and retrograde motion of Mercury, nor its square to Neptune and unfortunate fixed-star connections.

the way my solar fire is set, i need to enter the actual time and the actual place, as opposed to entering long and lat coordinates... like thus below..

James, we'd all like to have everything we want, but it's not always true that we can have it. The reason you didn't get the "actual place" is that I don't have it to give. The test was "blind" with one exception. The astrologer did not know the names or the actual birth locations and coordinates were given instead so he could calculate the charts. That's what was in the paper. Since all the data necessary to calculate a chart was given, it is your software that is the problem. The coordinates are obviously very close to the Greenwich meridian that GMT is appropriate as well.

This seems a very weak explanation of something that, in the Regiomontanus chart, has a great deal of supportive testimonies.

The following is a sentence from Table 2 pertaining to this chart

That there will be a generous chance of swindle is indicated by both Sun and Mercury, ruler of 7 in Leo, and, at a later birth time, also in connection with the horizon!

Excuse me, but this is balderdash. We are told elsewhere that a few minutes makes the difference. The Sun and Mercury are 5 degrees apart even though they are mutually applying. It's 3:24 PM. The Sun won't set (i.e. be on the horizon) for hours not "a few minutes" and Mercury won't set for some 20 minutes after that. Sun-Mercury square Neptune is relevant but as a general characteristic. I think we're looking for something that "triggers" this so to speak or something that brings it out and that something is only in force for a short time. I did find something and I'll post it after I eat breakfast, which is when I will begin to write it up.

Excuse me, but this is balderdash.

Yep, I agree, very strange remark. I can't understand why Knegt made that particular remark to substantiate his interpretation, though I can understand why he would make such an interpretation from this chart. My belief is that the reference to the "few minutes" would only concern the placement of Mars and its need to be upon the midheaven rather than just in the 10th house.

With regard to the "few minutes" remark, it is only said that the interpretation would be invalid if the real birth time was a few minutes earlier (not later - see p.14). The interpretation is said to be correct if the birth occurred at the time reported or later than the time reported, so Knegt must be thinking of something that has just come into orb, but which, a few minutes earlier, would not be in effect. Or it could be that his house system placed the Sun/Mercury conjunction in the 7th, and one of the points he made rested on those planets being angular and not in the 8th (hence it still applied later, right up to the time those planets passed beyond the descendant).
It doesn't look to me that Smidt has reported all the details he could have reported, which is very frustrating and means that ultimately we can't do anything more than speculate. I like the idea of the using the other reported results as a way for astrologers to test themselves though. I don't have time right now, but would like to try that test myself sometime.

I don't think it is the case that Knegt was an especially outstanding astrologer, or that the techniques he used were the only ones that could produce good results, I think it was more a case of this test being one that suits astrological analysis particularly well, because of its selection of test-examples who were all very different, but all very striking in the notable details of their lives.

I agree we are working with sketchy material of sketchy material and that is frustrating.

At the bottom of page 14 in brackets.

He notices that if the birth time of this subject had been a few minutes earlier the negative characteristics would have had a lesser time to develop or probably would have remained dormant forever. According to Knegt, with the birth time given or just a few minutes later, these negative traits, all of which point to dishonesty, would have developed.

So earlier by a few minutes less or no development of the negative traits. Birth time or later they would develop, but we don't know for how much later this cosmic condition would exist.

I think Knegt was hedging his bet. He noticed something that had just come into effect and therefore wanted the reader to know that he was delineating based on the given birth time, but if it was off and the birth was a few minutes earlier the delineation might not be accurate.

This throws out my idea of the Mars - Saturn conjunction no longer being angular, since later means it is no longer angular and therefore weaker. I don't see how it helps promote the idea of the Sun-Mercury square Neptune aspect unless he places a lot of importance to Neptune moving diurnally from house 6 to house 5 and being on the 6th house cusp at the birth time.

But Venus moves across the 8th cusp into the 7th prior to Mars crossing the MC diurnally. I can't see how this would create problems though. A few minutes earlier and Saturn would be in 8 and the square not angular. From the birth time for about 20 minutes the square is angular.

I still like the fixed star idea.

tom,

i was just responding to your puzzled comment..

i never asked you for anything in my first post here either - but i guess that escaped you as well..

cheers james

Tom wrote:

the way my solar fire is set, i need to enter the actual time and the actual place, as opposed to entering long and lat coordinates... like thus below..

James, we'd all like to have everything we want, but it's not always true that we can have it. The reason you didn't get the "actual place" is that I don't have it to give. The test was "blind" with one exception. The astrologer did not know the names or the actual birth locations and coordinates were given instead so he could calculate the charts. That's what was in the paper. Since all the data necessary to calculate a chart was given, it is your software that is the problem. The coordinates are obviously very close to the Greenwich meridian that GMT is appropriate as well.