bushwren wrote:
Perhaps my enthusiasm at my interpretation of what you meant by holistic system has led me to drag your thread off topic. Going back to your thesis about language, then, it is all very fine to me. I'm curious how you see this expanded means of describing space and time manifesting. In what concrete ways does the language of astrology yield a different understanding of space and time? Is this similar to other traditions, or very unique to astrology? You distinguish it from historically-tethered reasoning -- where, then, does the astrologer get information, if not the past? How is the language learned? Does the mode in which it is learned affect / expand the student's perception of space / time / otherness? You have a solid thesis, but some examples of how specifically astrological language changes perceptions would flesh it out.

Hi again.

Maybe we can start with the concept of complex systems. There are a lot of them around us-- some natural, like an ecosystem, and some cultural, like the process of putting together a major film.The galaxy is an example of a complex system.

Whether or not we see a system as complex depends in large part on the scale.

At some scales and some systems, the individual person is not terribly important, except insofar as s/he anecdotally illustrates a larger concept. For example, we could talk about Catholics in Latin America without having to itemize them individually: our scale is at the multi-national level of a large group. But if we drop down the scale to the level of the parish and its members' social interactions, then individuals and small groups become a lot more salient.

In horoscope reading, we constantly interact between scales. Yes, there's the astronomical universe out there, but another one of the variables is what the astrologer brings to the chart: his/her level of experience of human nature, knowledge of astrological methods, and "school" of astrology; but also his/her personal focus, intentions, personality, and ability to synthesize thousands of disparate information-bytes. Most of astrology's data bytes are displayed within the horoscope, although on occasion we might also read an ephemeris, aspectarian,or table of essential dignities. But when we look at astrological data tables (which arguably are graphics, also,) we then have to integrate their data back into what we see in the horoscope. Chart interpretation is not for the tunnel-visioned! A good astrologer is a panoramic thinker.

In some ways, astrology is one of the most complex systems going, because it operates scales ranging from the individual (or her missing sunglasses) on up through heavenly bodies; as well as the Mind of God, for some practitioners. So just learning astrology requires us to think at a range of nested scales. Most of us don't do this in ordinary life, unless we happen to do cosmology for a living. Even religious people who might experience a personal relationship with God, would not typically involve abstract pie-sectors of the sky in between these macro- and micro-scales.

So in the above manner, the process of chart interpretation-- plus communicating the chart to the querent or native in layperson's language-- can seen as one very complex system, as well. The astrologer at his laptop just operates at a smaller scale than the solar system, but he's interpreting it.

Whether large- or small-scale, there are several features of complex systems. (I'll use a more ecological or social science perspective here, vs. one from engineering.) Agency is an attribute of most of the members (or components,) and they can interact in ways beyond simple linear cause-and-effect. Interactions might be physical or informational. Members/components of the system can offer feedback: in human terms, they might push back. A small input Here can mean a much bigger result Over There. Members tend to be adaptive to change, which requires flexibility. Complex systems tend to be synergistic, meaning that analyzing individual components cannot explain how the system works as a whole.

If we "map" the above paragraph onto the complex system of the astrologer + horoscope + querent/native, we can see the practice of horoscope reading as far more dynamic and complex than what I think is the usual model: i.e., the astrologer as conduit of information from planets (or God >>> planets) >>>human events.

In terms of human feedback, I can't change Saturn's orbit, for example, but I can shape what I think of Saturn and how it influences my life-- or the querent's life. (See, for example, Liz Greene, Saturn: A New Look at an Old Devil.) This is no more than what some modern astrologers call choice-centered astrology. Or what Robert Hand called helping clients to make the best uses of their lives-- which calls for the client taking an active role in how his life turns out. In a completely fatalistic (stellar determinism, uni-directional) cosmos, tweaking the meaning of your life and horoscope wouldn't be possible.

Wow. This is taking a lot longer and many more words than I had planned. I need to stop now, but will return with some further thoughts on the relevance of the horoscope as a language. Because language (graphic or linear-verbal) is the medium through which we do most of our thinking and communicating.

Bushwren, I hope this post can wrap up my responses to your final paragraph in your last post to me.

In my previous post, I elaborated a bit on complex systems; or more accurately, complex adaptive systems. The galaxy is a complex system. Even the belief in an immanent God, as most cultures understand the divine creative principle (by any name) can be described as a complex system. (Sorry, not trying to be blasphemous here.) The horoscope is a complex system, notably as it involves a very stylized picture of the heavens at a moment in time, and how it affects human behaviour. The horoscope becomes more of a complex system if we add to it what the astrologer brings to the horoscope reading, and how s/he communicates to the querent or horoscope native.

Descriptions of complex systems vary, but a typical description would include: distributed control (no single authority or first cause,) inter-connectivity between members or components, co-evolution (connected members change collectively over time,) "the butterly's wing" element of chaos theory, and the primacy of interactions between members to explain outcomes that the system produces. http://web.mit.edu/esd.83/www/notebook/ ... ystems.pdf

OK, so what happens when we apply complex adaptive systems theory to the cosmos-astrologer-horoscope-querent system?

I've argued several times that the horoscope functions as a graphic, or visual language. Languages tend to privilege or downplay various concerns. They all have means of discussing time, normally in terms of the past>present>future; but not exclusively so. Languages include spatial concepts, and how they speak about time and space are often closely related.

The language of astrology particularly privileges forecasting into the future, and saying something truthful about a person at a distance, whom the astrologer has never met, based largely on the horoscope.

Please consider:
planet: noun or subject of a sentence
aspect: verb ("Venus squares Mars.")
sign: adjective or adverb (how a planet operates)
house: prepositional phrase (where/in what domain of life it operates)

When we talk about applying or separating aspects, transits, progressions, directions, &c we introduce the element of time into the horoscope system.

Psycholinguistics is a big field that focuses on how people acquire languages.

However, if you've ever studied a foreign language, you probably reached a point of understanding how that new language made you think differently, because two different languages never translate into one another 100%.

Where time concepts are concerned, English has all kinds of nuanced verb forms expressing time that a lot of other languages don't have. (Biblical Hebrew has pretty much a straight-up present tense, where the sense of time depends upon context and action, for example.)

So the astrologer faces adaptive pressures or opportunities on two fronts:

1. as a co-evolving, adapting member of a complex system, because if the other members of the system aren't staying still, the astrologer's mind cannot stay still.

2. the evidence from neuroscience, that learning basic literacy or learning a new language actually "rewires" the brain.
http://www.scilearn.com/blog/how-learni ... -the-brain

http://www.medicaldaily.com/pulse/how-l ... ion-362872

In this adaptive sense, the brain also functions as a complex system.

My theory (which, if configured as the so-called Sapir-Whorf or linguistic relativity hypothesis is still debated by linguists,) is that astrologers' enhanced predictive abilities have to do with the horoscope as a language that specifically directs us to think differently about time.

There's a lot that we don't know about time, but if it is simultaneous (as Hindus accept) although normally we experience it in linear fashion, the horoscope may be an adaptive tool for a more developed time sense.

Generally we don't have a problem with the concept of memory, the ability to recall events that no longer exist because they happened in the past.

If we can accept or at least stay open to the possibility of future knowing, as exemplified by people who have pre-cognitive dreams or visual images (often called second sight or 6th sense) of future events, and that these "gifts" may be detectable in little-developed parts of the brain, then perhaps we're on our way to understanding why astrology works.

As of now, these are just theories.

Here is a summary of my take on this topic:

Since astrology is an ancient art/science that I respect for its practical usefulness, for questions regarding its theoretical foundations, I likewise first of all turn to the old sources.

Thus, we find that astrology traditionally rests on a well thought through and coherent world model: The cosmology of Plato and Aristotle that was, in outline, generally accepted throughout the whole occident until the Copernican revolution. In a revised form, it can still provide the foundation of a modern interpretation of how astrology works.

The most challenging aspect of it for us moderns could be that, in it, the Earth is at the center of the universe. Swapping the "na?ve" geocentric view for the heliocentric perspective has been drummed into us early on, but we need to realize that, relativistically speaking, the latter view is no less arbitrary than the former, but what really matters here is the observer's referential frame. Which is still the good old static sublunar sphere.

If the world has a soul (which of course it has in the ancients' views), then this is its body. This is the place where the four elements mix in various proportions to bring forth the multitude of impermanent phenomena, much like the four humors provide the functioning of the human body. This world of ours is a microcosmos that, in its own limited ways, faithfully reflects the divine macrocosmos, which (depending on your spiritual background) belongs to the gods, or angels, or archetypes.

The latter can further be differentiated into the soul of the world (anima mundi), ruled by the ever busy planets, and the spirit of the world (spiritus mundi), which belongs to the fixed stars or, in later astrology, to the immutable signs.

In some models, there resides beyond all this the One Divinity, the origin of the Light that continuously flows down upon Earth and Man through the aforementioned intermediaries.

Others preferred to think in terms of sound: Heavenly Harmonies audible to the human soult, which it spontaneously resonates with (Kepler).

All this is ordered by universal arithmetics and geometry that underlie Creation.

Regardless of how exactly it was modeled, the actual in-fluences of the celestial bodies were out of question in the ancients' view, therefore we should not dismiss this concept lightly, but look for a modern equivalent.

There have in fact been various candidates suggested for the actual medium of these influences. Some speculate that neutrinos play a role. My personal favorite is the omnipresent and all pervasive force of gravity, associated with the world soul in contemporary natural philosophy.

And yes, I am aware that e.g. the gravitational force Pluto exerts on Earth is minute; however, what we need to take into consideration is not the quantity but the quality of his gravitational influence. Or rather, how he subtly modifies the gravitational field of the solar system that encompasses Earth. For it has been theorized and demonstrated by some rather unorthodox researchers that gravity, independently from its magnitude, can be the medium for some very specific information.

Now I do think that this concept of etheric influence (let's call it the spatial view) should be supplemented with a temporal view. Both space and time are at the core of astrology. Early astrology/astronomy were closely linked to time measurement, and the zodiac can be looked at as a giant clock, in which planets are the hands. Only that these hands don't just show the quantity of passing time, but also its quality at any moment: The movements of the gods and their ever changing relations to each other are setting the themes that are unfolding into corresponding events down on Earth.

If anybody here would like me to elaborate on any aspect of this model or provide references, just say so.

Michael, thanks so much for you clear and insightful exposition of the traditional world view. Although a lot of the Greek proto-science doesn't hold up today, the ancients did develop a coherent set of explanations that I think we lack today.

I think the geocentric model still merit-- as a description of how the cosmos looks when we gaze up at the sky. When an astronomer estimates the distance from the earth to Mars, that is also geocentric thinking. The Gaia hypothesis, that global ecosystems function as one living organism, named for the Greek primal earth goddess, sounds a bit like the world soul.

And who is to say that there isn't a divine consciousness superintending the cosmos?

Gravity and other "scientific" explanations for why astrology works do not fare so well, IMO. Astrology commonly operates at a very fine-grained level of ordinary people's lives, so we need something between a general law of physics or the moon's effect on ocean tides and saying something about why the horoscope native is 40 and still single, or the whereabouts of the missing cat. An explanation for astrology also has to work for horary, mundane, electional, and predictive astrology, which can have little to do with some presumed gravitational pull on human bodies. It's hard to see why a physical principle like gravity should be sensitive to signs and houses, which do not exist astronomically.

Incidentally, I linked this thread to a similar one at Astrodienst, which is now in its 12th page, so if anyone is interested in the OP topic, you might find some of the posts there to be of interest.

https://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1495746510/0

waybread wrote:Michael, thanks so much for you clear and insightful exposition of the traditional world view.

You are welcome.

Although a lot of the Greek proto-science doesn't hold up today, the ancients did develop a coherent set of explanations that I think we lack today.

Exactly. That is why I propose that we astrologers should seek a modernized version of the ancients' view, just like most of us have adopted a revised version of classical astrology's practical side.

I think the geocentric model still merit-- as a description of how the cosmos looks when we gaze up at the sky. When an astronomer estimates the distance from the earth to Mars, that is also geocentric thinking. The Gaia hypothesis, that global ecosystems function as one living organism, named for the Greek primal earth goddess, sounds a bit like the world soul.

Actually, Gaia could be seen as the part of the world soul that pertains to our planet. Her individual soul, so to speak - which forms part of the soul of the solar system, galaxy etc, all the way up to the soul of the universe, or multiverse.

And who is to say that there isn't a divine consciousness superintending the cosmos?

I think that the workings of astrology are strongly suggesting that there is indeed something like an "implicit order".

Gravity and other "scientific" explanations for why astrology works do not fare so well, IMO. Astrology commonly operates at a very fine-grained level of ordinary people's lives, so we need something between a general law of physics or the moon's effect on ocean tides and saying something about why the horoscope native is 40 and still single, or the whereabouts of the missing cat. An explanation for astrology also has to work for horary, mundane, electional, and predictive astrology, which can have little to do with some presumed gravitational pull on human bodies. It's hard to see why a physical principle like gravity should be sensitive to signs and houses, which do not exist astronomically.

Try to look at it the other way around: Gravitational pull could be but the most easily observable physical effect of a force that is basically multi-dimensional and carries subtle information. The controversial research of some scientists suggests just that.

Also, keep in mind that, according to the General Theory of Relativity, gravity is intimately connected to space itself, whose curvatures it represents. And space in turn is linked to the world soul in the natural philosophy that I advocate.

In this view, signs and houses can be seen as part of a geometric structure that underlies the fabric of space.

Living beings could be receptive to these information currents via subtle as well as physical parts of their anatomy. Think of the chakras, which are connected to various glands and nerve plexi, but also resonate with their corresponding planets according to Vedic astrologers.

I am aware that this concept is more suitable for some of the many areas covered by astrology than for others, but it is only logical to assume that "the implicit order" unfolds also via the time flow, which makes my model more universally applicable, IMO.

Incidentally, I linked this thread to a similar one at Astrodienst, which is now in its 12th page, so if anyone is interested in the OP topic, you might find some of the posts there to be of interest.

https://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1495746510/0

I am going to take a look.

Michael, thanks. Now if you or anyone can explain how the Grand Theories of relativity, quantum mechanics, Christianity, physics, metaphysics, Greek philosophy--- or whatever--- explain the very ordinary types of issues people bring to astrology, I'd probably say, "Thanks-- you're a genius! You've answered my question."

But nobody so far has explained to me how the Big Stuff Out There That Permeates Everything explains how the astrologer locates the missing cat, why the native's ex BF just un-friended her on social media, or why she doesn't have a BF. Is quantum physics ever going to explain why somebody's sister cannot manage her money? Should he take the job as a shopping mall security guard?

I could go on in this fashion, but let's work the explanations in reverse. To me, these types of Internet forum questions-- which a skilled astrologer can answer with accuracy-- give us a really goofy view of the cosmos, indeed.

Waybread,

It seems like your question concerns the dichotomy between the divine and the mundane.

Well, the abstract archetypal themes are of necessity being expressed in the microcosmic world of everyday issues.

It is exactly because the World Soul permeates everything, that it is translating itself even into the most mundane occurrences.

Michael, how does the World Soul relate to a horary chart showing the location of the missing car keys, or whether a lawsuit will succeed?

I was listening to David Icke saying that reality is the movie projector, and everyone thinks it is the images projected on the screen and tries to change those. I found that an unhelpful analogy, because you can't change the projector any more than you can change the images on the screen. Astrologers study the projector (the stars) but they can't change what is projected, or even half understand what is being projected or why....or who.

Astrology is of course about Time.

Does anyone relate to what is described in this song?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkfNpa8 ... DgLrNdBJOI

waybread wrote:Michael, how does the World Soul relate to a horary chart showing the location of the missing car keys, or whether a lawsuit will succeed?

The World Soul relates not only to space, but also to time. Again, the micro-/macrocosm concept applies - in temporal terms. That is, in the moment of the reading as signified by the celestial bodies, the whole story of the missing car keys or the lawsuit is contained. It is this information that the well versed astrologer is able to read.

This is as best as I can explain it right now.

Astrology charts for the inorganic world 'work' the same as for the organic. Some that come to mind: charts for countries, charts for events, I.E., for earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, plane crashes, (my progressed mundane lunar chart for the attack on the WTC - a favorite of mine using a Sidereal Caplunar with the secondary progressed birth chart for New York City).