Skyscript Astrology Forum

Tom wrote:As my quote states I was referring to something that was uncommon (I used the word "rarely") rather than "heretical." Regiomontanus is the most widely used system for horary and Louis, at the time of the writing of his book, was one of the few horary astrologers using Koch. He may still use it for all I know, but he also used Regio (see pages 5 & 12).

Sungem stated it was 'heresy to boot' and of course that is so true!

I do not have the Louis book on hand at the moment but I will look up the reference when I locate it. March and McEvers used Koch in their horary work (as does Kevin Burk and a few others) but of course you are right, Regiomontanus is traditional. I use the outer planets in natal work, but never in horary, though apparently there are some modern astrologers who do (I think it started with Marc Jones' book on horary). In any event there must be a term to describe the use of traditional astrology plus the Koch system and Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto in natal work -- someone suggested it be called 'Georgian astrology' but I doubt that would go over very well!

Tom:I can't remember what I had for breakfast, or to take out the garbage or to return a phone call despite the yellow sticky on my screen,

Well - that's easy - they're not astrology, are they?
I have a lawyer friend with a 'selective' photographic memory. He can quote books and music commentary references but nothing to do with law! Has to look them all up! Personally I have trouble with the sticky reminders on my screen because of the amount of whiteout

I haven't looked at Debbi Kempton Smith's book in years. All my shelves now have 2 rows of books each, but I do know where everything is.
So I hauled her out and yes, it's a 1982 edition, so she probably predates Anthony Louis.

How well I remember doing those calculations by hand! Or rather I don't - it is something I've promised myself to review one of these days. So much to read - so little time! For someone, as I've said before, who has a problem adding the price of 2 icecreams together it was a wonder I stayed with astrology through that process! It isn't that I can't do it when shown - I think boredom sets in, we Geminis much prefer words.

Finally why would anyone use that pun in a horary book where Koch houses or any system other than Regiomontanus is rarely used?

This surprised me too when I started reading Anthony Louis' book, but he states on p123 (you looked at the index Tom, I looked at the contents) . . .

The horary chart reflects how our minds grapple with the problem, and no two people think alike. My advice to the beginning horary astrologer is to use the house system he or she is most comfortable with. Each astrologer must try different techniques to develop a method of interpretation that is reliable in his or her own hands.

He then does a chart example using both Koch and Regio which I won't go into since you both have the book.

See also: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/houprob4.html

Andrew: Koch is not so heretical if you consider that it is kind of like Alcabitius in reverse.

...and then there are those of us who simply use what we are taught having been given a reasonable explanation for doing so by an experienced teacher. It seems the way to go when you're learning. Then of course when curiosity takes hold, there are so many other queries competing for attention. I seem to remember something about reliability at extreme latitudes being one of those reasons for using Placidus. Anything to ensure we don't fall off the edge of the world 'downunder'

Curious though that Louis must have carried over his natal house preference to horary instead of doing what most of us seem to - i.e. use our preferred house system for nativities and switch to Regio for horary. However I think he has this bit right ...

Andrew quoting Louis: ...if you stick to a house cusp system that you like or feel at home with, then the universe will see to it that you ask or receive horary questions at a time suitable for your house system.'

The Universe at work? Absolutely!

Andrew: In any event there must be a term to describe the use of traditional astrology plus the Koch system and Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto in natal work --

Geogian? Go to it! Let us know how you got on when you get out

Sungem wrote:[I seem to remember something about reliability at extreme latitudes being one of those reasons for using Placidus.

What? Placidus collapses completely over Antarctic circle. I can only imagine the frustration of an astrologer living in Spitzbergen... I have enough problems with my friends born in Oulu and having 20 degrees between their DC and MC.

Sari, 60N10

Hi Sari

Well, your 60n10 beats my 34s55 any day, brrrr Therefore either I don't recollect clearly/accurately or simply did what I was told for once (!)

So what house system do you find most accurate for those latitudes? You will obviously have more experience of them than some of us.

Hi Sungem, I really don't know . I've gone through many house systems, both quadrant and equal, but I returned back to Placidus recently, when I studied my firdaria periods. I have now Moon/Sun period going on and the current themes reflect definitely the 4/10 axis (my Sun and Moon oppose each other loosely, in the Placidian tenth and fourth house respectively). Another reason for preferring Placidus has been the Placidian primary directions I've been now studied. They work! But I can tell that the Campanus system is extremely impractical here .

I know at least one or two astrologers here who prefer Meridian/Equal/Whole Sign houses because they say that they work everywhere, even on the northern latitudes. But I don't know... of course that's kind of true, but the equal house systems miss the rise/culmination thing which after all is in many ways the basis for everything, IMHO.

And it doesn't help the fact that over Antarctic circle there's signs that don't rise at all. In the winter time, when the Sun is in a sign that doesn't rise, it means that at noon you have the Sun on "Midheaven", but it's under the horizon! So I think you shouldn't be able to have it over the horizon in your horoscope then. Someone should invent a house system, where the planets that in certain times of a year don't rise over the horizon on the northern latitudes, would circulate houses I-VI all the time .

But in places near Antarctic circle but below it I believe in the quadrant systems (Placidus, that is), despite of the highly unequal houses with some of the rising signs. Maybe they only mirror the unique character of the northern people... I would even say that it's a bit like man playing God, when you dismiss a house system only because the houses don't look "sensible" to you.

Oh my, I'm sorry, I see that this has digressed from the original topic quite a lot...

Papretis wrote:But in places near Antarctic circle but below it I believe in the quadrant systems (Placidus, that is), despite of the highly unequal houses with some of the rising signs. Maybe they only mirror the unique character of the northern people... I would even say that it's a bit like man playing God, when you dismiss a house system only because the houses don't look "sensible" to you.

You might find this article helpful:

http://www.astrologie.ws/images/huizen1.htm

Here is an extract from an article I wrote for a local astrology newsletter; I later posted it on this website (it may be nonsense, but hopefully it's at least interesting nonsense!):

The Koch or GOHS system of domification (Geburtsorthausersystem) is not defined for extreme latitudes near the Earth's poles. However, this is not necessarily the problem it might appear to be at first glance. Due to the uneven probability density of the ascendant in circumpolar regions, it is not even possible to calculate an Equal house chart for such latitudes: at 70 latitude only eight possible ascendants are available and at 89 there are none at all. This is not simply a preferential matter of house division but a mathematical and astronomical problem inherent within the formalism of astrology itself: in such instances neither the Equal nor the Whole Sign house system will work as there are no ascendants available to serve as the first house indicator. There are therefore only two options available in such scenarios:

[1] Use the Meridian house system (designed by astrologer David Cope a.k.a. Zariel and derived from the house system of J-B Morin) which uses the equatorial ascendant (the so-called "east point") instead of the local (birthplace) ascendant. This relocates the place of birth to 0 latitude (the equator).

[2] Change the latitude of the chart being computed to the closest calculable latitude available. That is, move the latitude of the chart being computed from the pole to the edge of the arctic or antarctic circle during the computation of the chart.

Option [1] presupposes that the formalism of astrology is valid for only an equatorial latitude: i.e., astrology was developed in that region and was designed to work only within the context of that region. All births are relocated to the equator which carries an archetypal significance for all places on Earth (the equator serves as a surrogate for the birthplace).

Option [2] presupposes that the formalism of astrology is valid for all latitudes but acknowledges the restrictions which living within time and space impose upon us (the closest calculable latitude serves as an extension of the birthplace rather than as a substitute for it). Moving the latitude of the chart from the pole to the edge of the arctic or antarctic circle recognizes that a valid ascendant and house cusps cannot be computed beyond that point, i.e., the point at which the restrictions of time and space create a kind of ontological barrier beyond which the formalism of geocentric astrology no longer applies.

It is possible to use Koch cusps for births at extreme latitudes but one must recognise that one is working within real-world restrictions which require real-world solutions. Since it is impossible to obtain an ascendant (from the full range of twelve possible ascendants) at extreme latitudes one has to compute the chart for a latitude in which there exists an ascendant to be computed. The only choices in such cases are either an equatorial ascendant or the last existent ascendant at the edge of the circle. This respects the archetypal nature of the zodiac: seven planets, twelve signs, all available for charting.

I have calculated many charts for individuals born in extreme northern latitudes using Koch house cusps computed for the calculable limits of latitude in the Koch system and have found them extremely descriptive. This is purely subjective of course, but I have found such charts much more descriptive than those cast for equatorial ascendants. Koch cusps appear to work because they are dynamic: the "radius vector" of the Koch system describes equal areas in equal times (Kepler's Second Law) as applied to the Earth's rotation on its axis and it is this "dynamic" nature of Koch cusps which makes them particularly sensitive to the transits and directions of the planets. That is, the Koch system is an "Equal house" system in the sense that equal areas are swept out in equal times of the trisected diurnal arc. This is not a matter of equal degrees of spatial movement as in the Equal house system but a matter of equal degrees of temporal movement. In other words, the conceptual basis of the Koch house system is grounded in an "equal time" tri-section of the semi-diurnal arc: the radius vector describes equal areas in equal times. The Equal house system divides the ecliptic, and the Meridian house system projects equal divisions of the equator onto the ecliptic. The Koch system is preferable to both because, unlike either Equal or Meridian houses, it recognizes that mundane houses refer to the Earth rather than to the ecliptic.

Alcabitius, an Arabian astrologer who lived towards the end of the first millenium, is credited with having devised a house system similar to that of Koch, with the important exception that its calculations are reversed. Alcabitius does not calculate the degree of the midheaven brought to the ascendant to determine the semi-arc as with Koch but calculates the degree of the ascendant and takes it to the midheaven. Alcabitius house cusps are an equatorial equivalent of Porphyry house cusps, and as with Porphyry house cusps, the partitioning of a flat drawing into equal divisions of the degrees within each quadrant does not correspond to the partitioning of the "bulbous" nature of the Earth in mutual interaction with other circular movements in the sky. The horoscope is a flat drawing which is inferred from circular movements in the heavens but mundane houses cannot be represented as equal divisions within each quadrant due to the obliquity of the ecliptic.

The trisection of the semi-diurnal arc as per Koch houses may seem like an arbitrary mathematical system, but without a symbolic understanding of this technique and the principles informing it, we are simply accepting it (as well as other methods of house division) on blind faith without understanding why we are using it, or why it seems to work so well in so many instances as a representation of the dynamic universe around us.

Andrew wrote:
You might find this article helpful:

http://www.astrologie.ws/images/huizen1.htm

Huh? In Dutch? Sounds interesting, but my head is boiling already with these trisected diurnal arcs in English . Thank you Andrew for this excerpt you wrote. I've heard before about the idea of moving the latitude to the next possible one and I couldn't understand the sensibility behind that at all, but now I see that there may be something in that idea... neither had I realized before that the Meridian system means simply relocating the latitude of the birth place to the equator. I see! But I must admit that I still haven't grasped the mechanism behind the Koch system. One day I will.

I thought today that one option in latitudes over 66N might be to simply use Solar Sign houses.

Sari

If you scroll down a bit (having used Andrew's link) there's a comparison of Jung's chart using Koch and Placidus - but you're right, it looks interesting but I can't read it either.

This is the same site's english index:

http://www.astrologie.ws/links2.htm

but I can only find that article in Dutch (lunchtime again)