Skyscript Astrology Forum

Martin Gansten wrote:

The Mercury-Mars aspect is actually applying, as Mercury is retrograde.

Yes I did see that and edited my post. Presumably while you were posting! I find this a really rich, interesting chart. So many intriguing features. Thanks for the additional analysis.

Using Valens outlook Mars, Mercury and the Sun have added power as they are 'advancing' towards the angles.

Mark

I would also add that Mercury is one of the candidates for being the kurios according to Porphyry since it is in the 10th sign and ruling the bounds of the PNL. In the sidereal zodiac, it is without the ray of either benefic so is bound to misbehave when also considering that it is retrograde and combust.

In the modern version of astrology, Neptune Mercury aspects are indicative of lie (s) or liar.

b.r
Wolfgang

Interesting, Evangeline Adams is listed under Fraud/ Liar in Astrodatabank because she lied about her age in Census data !!

Gadbury is another one .
Joe Biden too.

Now, for Saints to show up please

Pankajdubey wrote:

Interesting, Evangeline Adams is listed under Fraud/ Liar in Astrodatabank because she lied about her age in Census data !!

Gadbury is another one .
Joe Biden too.

Now, for Saints to show up please Wink

Well of course if you include any indiscretion its going to take things to
reductio ad absurdum. I was looking more for people who develop a habitual character pattern of lying and deceiving others. In some instances they fabricate major details about their lives or quite fundamental facts or go out of their way to mislead and deceive.

Frankly, if we start including politicians this list could get quite long....

I do have an interesting example from outside that sphere closer to our own. But I am busy preparing for a conference this weekend so that will need to wait until next week...

Mark

Sorry to see the politicians excluded but here is one I found earlier which fits everything mentioned in this thread( except of course an exalted Jupiter).

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Aitken,_Jonathan

Mark wrote: https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Ge ... _Christian
Mark

i would consider positions in the 8th house, especially a saturn in the 8th, which is seen here and in a number of examples i casually scanned.. bernie madoff is another example..

pankajdubey's latest example has a moon in the 8th... something about playing fast and loose with others resources / assets, seems to be a marked characteristic of the con man, liar, thief...

Pakajdubey wrote:

Sorry to see the politicians excluded but here is one I found earlier which fits everything mentioned in this thread( except of course an exalted Jupiter).

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Aitken,_Jonathan

That was my attempt at humour Pankajdubey! Actually being British Jonathan Aitken did come to mind. I must study that when I have more time!

Politicians are a rich mine of liars and deceivers.

Mark

James_M wrote:
i

would consider positions in the 8th house, especially a saturn in the 8th, which is seen here and in a number of examples i casually scanned.. bernie madoff is another example.

pankajdubey's latest example has a moon in the 8th... something about playing fast and loose with others resources / assets, seems to be a marked characteristic of the con man, liar, thief...

I can see where you are coming from in terms of the 8th having that role in chart like Madoff where there is effectively theft of other's money. But its not intrinsically seen as a traditional indicator of lies and deception is it? I am seeing the Mercury-Mars connection in an awful lot of charts. Although not just square and opposition. The conjunction, trine and even the sextile. I dont want to typecast large chunks of the population but Mercury in a Mars ruled signs seems to tick one potential signature too. It seems to crop up in a lot of the charts I have examined. Although we obviously need more chart indicators to form a useful testimony.

Mark

Mark wrote:.... I am seeing the Mercury-Mars connection in an awful lot of charts. Although not just square and opposition. The conjunction, trine and even the sextile.

there won't be much left in traditional astrology with all the aspects included. Do you mean the human species is cunning intrinsically, and the saints get the inconjunct

A lot of physicist and engineers will have this combination- someone closer
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Ha ... John_Scott

I think it is the ones that have exalted planets rise in station and get visible , good or bad.
BTW many Nobel laureates do have the Mercury -Mars inconjunct - even the Physicists.

Valens:
Mercury makes weight lifters and mimes, those making their livelihood with displays of skill, deception, gambling, or sleight of hand. It also rules those skilled interpreters of the heavens, those who by using pleasure or winning charm, earn fame for their amazing feats?all for the sake of gain.

Mars brings violent murders, slashings and bloodshed, attacks of fever, ulceration, boils, burns, chains, torture, masculinity, false oaths, wandering, embassies under difficult circumstances, actions involving fire or iron, craftwork, masonry.

Pankajdubey wrote:

there won't be much left in traditional astrology with all the aspects included. Do you mean the human species is cunning intrinsically, and the saints get the inconjunct Very Happy

I think I did make it clear this was only one potential signature. I have consistently said in this thread you need several testimony to get somewhere. And even then assigning ethics to someone from a just a chart is a controversial business!

Thanks for the Valens reference. A useful point to always keep in mind that the planets have multiple associations. That is why delineation can be so tricky at times.

Mark

Mark wrote: I can see where you are coming from in terms of the 8th having that role in chart like Madoff where there is effectively theft of other's money. But its not intrinsically seen as a traditional indicator of lies and deception is it?
Mark

hi mark,

no to your question from what i recall of the books i have read..

i think you are on the right track with the mercury/mars connections.. as you note in your last comment to pankajdubey - delineation can be so tricky at times - indeed!

perhaps an interesting question might be 'where does one find ethical or moral character in a chart?' if there was a way to know that was somehow missing or absent, it might help pave the way for knowing who was more likely to use lying or deceit as a tactic to further there situation... going back to madoff - interestingly he has jupiter on the descendant square venus which in turn squares the ascendant axis... and, he has saturn in aries in the 8th..

if i was to try to answer my own question, i think it would hinge on the position of jupiter and saturn to some extent.. how do these planets function in the chart and are they likely to put the brakes on other chart factors or not? in the case of madoffs chart, aside from the mercury in aries - ruled by mars, he has mars in gemini ruled by mercury... mutual reception so far as the literature goes.. you might consider exploring that set up as well - mars ruled by mercury.. he seems to show up as witnessed in this and the gacy example i provided much earlier in the thread, as does jupiter on the descendant..