Skyscript Astrology Forum

Thanks Paul and Therese.

Responding to Therese:

I'm not sure why you mention Ptolemy because in his lifetime the tropical and sidereal zodiacs were so closely aligned that a difference in the longitudes of stars would generally not have been considered.

Ptolemy was the second astronomer to understand the precession of the equinoxes since Hipparchus and he is also the creator of the western school of tropical astrology. Most western astrologers today follow his lead.

So let's take the lunar mansions of the Arabs. What are the lunar mansions? Each mansion has always been identified with the stars within its boundaries, correct? So I'm wondering what reference you are using that states that the stars within each Arabic mansion are the same as they were in Ptolemy's time?

Al Biruni has this to say about the Arabic mansions:

"The Arabs, being illiterate people could not recognize the Lunar [Mansions] except by fixed marks, visible to the eye. Therefore they marked the [Mansions] by those fixed stars which lie within them." Chronology of the Ancient Nations, Sachau trans. at 336.

"...the Arabs attribute all meteorological changes to the influence of the rising and setting of the stars, in consequence of their ignorance of physical sciences, thinking that all changes of the kind depend on the bodies of their stars and their rising, not upon certain portions of the celestial globe [ie the Zodiac] and the Sun's marching therein..." Chronology of the Ancient Nations, Sachau trans. at 336-337.

"...the nature of pecularities which are attributed to the first [Mansion]...are peculiar to the first part of Aries and never leave this place, although the star (or stars which form the Lunar [Mansion]) may leave it. In a similar way all that is peculiar to Aries does not move away from the place of Aries, although the constellation of Aries does move away." Chronology of the Ancient Nations Sachau, trans. at 338.

Source: The Mansions of the Moon in Astrology & Magic

Miguel wrote:

Al Biruni has this to say about the Arabic mansions:

"The Arabs, being illiterate people could not recognize the Lunar [Mansions] except by fixed marks, visible to the eye. Therefore they marked the [Mansions] by those fixed stars which lie within them." Chronology of the Ancient Nations, Sachau trans. at 336.

"...the Arabs attribute all meteorological changes to the influence of the rising and setting of the stars, in consequence of their ignorance of physical sciences, thinking that all changes of the kind depend on the bodies of their stars and their rising, not upon certain portions of the celestial globe [ie the Zodiac] and the Sun's marching therein..." Chronology of the Ancient Nations, Sachau trans. at 336-337.

"...the nature of pecularities which are attributed to the first [Mansion]...are peculiar to the first part of Aries and never leave this place, although the star (or stars which form the Lunar [Mansion]) may leave it. In a similar way all that is peculiar to Aries does not move away from the place of Aries, although the constellation of Aries does move away." Chronology of the Ancient Nations Sachau, trans. at 338.

Source: The Mansions of the Moon in Astrology & Magic

Miguel, I wasn't familiar with that particular work of Al-biruni which you quoted from Christopher Warnock's Lunar Mansion site. So I was immediately curious about the quotes since they appear to contradict what Al-biruni wrote in The Book of Instruction in the Elements of Astrology. My question was which of these two books was written first?

I found the answer here: https://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Al-biruni
in an article by Robert Zoller. Chronology was completed in the year 1000 when Al-biruni was 27 years old. Instruction was completed 29 years later in 1029. In this later book there are several pages covering the lunar mansions which include detailed descriptions of the stars in each mansion.

Al-biruni does say, however, that the mansions begin with the Sun at the vernal equinox. He doesn't explain the contradiction between this tropical starting point and the star groups in the mansions. There is nothing here about magic or interpretation as on Warnock's site. Apparently between 1000 and 1029 Al-biruni intensively studied astrology. In Instruction Al-biruni states:

164. (....) Just as the signs are called after the constellations, so the mansions are called after the fixed stars in which the moon is stationed for the night. They begin as in the case of the sun at the vernal equinox. (p 81)

1. al-sharatain, (two signals), the first mansion is marked by two bright stars on the horns....of Aries; they are disposed in a north and south line, the apparent distance between them, about a fathom, being the same as that between the southern one and a third smaller star. also called the butters.

2. al-butain, three stars from the tail of Aries disposed in a triangle. Diminutive of bain, belly because smaller than bain (....No. twenty eight)

165. How to Know the Mansions
Al-thureiyah [spelling?], the Pleiades, is the most noticeable and the best known of all the mansions of the moon; it is therefore a convenient starting point for their study. (p. 85)

This is a text typed on a manual typewriter, and I'm not sure of "bain." It's difficult to decipher some of the letters in the text. Anyway, the point being that in Al-biruni's Instruction the mansions were closely identified with stars within their boundaries. The layers of magical concepts and interpretation came after Al-biruni's time, and were very popular in the Renaissance.

Christopher Warnock fully supports the mansions in the tropical zodiac. Since I use India's 27 system of mansions, I haven't studied their development from the time of Al-biruni. I don't know when or by whom the various levels of interpretation were introduced, and I don't know if the western mansions borrowed from India's nakshatras. But we do know that Al-biruni mentioned only the stars within each mansion without layers of interpretation and magical properties.

So can we really say that the (meanings?) of the western lunar mansions have "precessed" along with the tropical zodiac, as you mentioned in an earlier post, Miguel?

Thanks Therese, your comments are insightful. Indeed there seems to be a contradiction in the way Al Biruni defines the moon mansions.

However, just like the tropical zodiac signs are defined after the constellations, so too the tropical moon mansions can be defined after the stars that are part of it. So there is no need to think the meaning has precessed with their movement.

In fact, it could be said the precessed stars and their constellations have lost all meaning since they have become dislodged from the seasons.


I will quote again from Al Biruni to confirm this:

"...the nature of pecularities which are attributed to the first [Mansion]...are peculiar to the first part of Aries and never leave this place, although the star (or stars which form the Lunar [Mansion]) may leave it. In a similar way all that is peculiar to Aries does not move away from the place of Aries, although the constellation of Aries does move away." Chronology of the Ancient Nations Sachau, trans. at 338.

Miguel wrote:

I will quote again from Al Biruni to confirm this:

"...the nature of pecularities which are attributed to the first [Mansion]...are peculiar to the first part of Aries and never leave this place, although the star (or stars which form the Lunar [Mansion]) may leave it. In a similar way all that is peculiar to Aries does not move away from the place of Aries, although the constellation of Aries does move away." Chronology of the Ancient Nations Sachau, trans. at 338.

In a way this is a rather strange statement as no "pecularities" were given to the mansions in Al-biruni's time. So it seems to be a theoretical statement only. We really have to begin with the historical picture of when and how characteristics became associated with the tropical mansions in later centuries.

It's certainly a topic of research as to whether the characteristics of tropical signs have remained the same through the centuries. This has been discussed on Skyscript before with quotes from Valens. There are opinions and observations on both sides of the question!

This looks like a good historical review of the tropical mansions, but I don't have time to read it carefully at the moment. I would welcome posts by anyone who has studied the history of what are known as the "Arabic mansions."

http://www.yeatsvision.com/Mansions.html

I'm puzzled. I see references to Dorotheus on lunar mansion sites, but I've never read anything about Dorotheus in relation to lunar mansions. Can anyone help??

In a way this is a rather strange statement as no "pecularities" were given to the mansions in Al-biruni's time.

What are your sources for this? You say you are not familiar with the Arabic Moon mansions, but instead use the Vedic Nakshatras.

However, Al Biruni is writing as if they existed in Arabic culture, althought it's indeed possible he invented the concept of Arabian Manzil drawing from Indian sources. I am not an scholar on the subject, so I will leave this to others.

It's certainly a topic of research as to whether the characteristics of tropical signs have remained the same through the centuries. This has been discussed on Skyscript before with quotes from Valens. There are opinions and observations on both sides of the question!

This is true, I doubt it can be properly tested. It's a matter of philosophy, do you take the meanings of the constellations in themselves or tied to the seasons? Either way the first option is a little misleading.

Some siderealists recognize there is some seasonal signification in their zodiac.

Therese Hamilton wrote:This looks like a good historical review of the tropical mansions, but I don't have time to read it carefully at the moment. I would welcome posts by anyone who has studied the history of what are known as the "Arabic mansions."

http://www.yeatsvision.com/Mansions.html

I'm puzzled. I see references to Dorotheus on lunar mansion sites, but I've never read anything about Dorotheus in relation to lunar mansions. Can anyone help??

Thanks for the link. I agree it would be a good idea to have the opinion of scholars on this issue.

Dorotheus is clearly a pseudonym, but you should know this. You are a scholar, right?

I've just found an excellent discussion of the Arabic mansions in Ben Dykes' Choices and Inceptions (Cazimi Press, 2012), pages 39-47. It would help if I'd find time to actually read the books I purchase! It will take a while to get my thoughts and research together before posting further on this topic. Thank you for your patience, Miguel.

According to Ben Dykes, "Dorotheus" (when mentioned as a source for material on the lunar mansions) isn't a pseudonym. Mansion material related to Dorotheus was apparently taken from Book 5 of Carmen. Dykes writes:

"But did the original Dorotheus use signs, mansions or even decans? My view is that he probably used the mansions or decans, since in a couple of places he mentions specific degrees before which or after which it is all right to undertake an action." (Choices and Inceptions, p. 45)

Ben Dykes has just given us a new translation of Carmen Astrologicum (2017). Another treasure from Ben who seems to be a magician in his ability to provide numerous translations of historic texts for astrologers!!

Surprising find. More scholarship would be needed on this issue.

Miguel, before I post further I want to be sure I understand your meaning here:

Therese wrote:
You can't adjust the stars to always remain in the same place in the tropical zodiac. That is a contradiction in logic.

Miguel wrote:
Why not? It has been done with the zodiac signs by Ptolemy, while the Arabs did it with the Arabic moon mansions. Why not with the fixed stars?

Then Miguel posted this quote from Al-biruni:
"...the nature of peculiarities which are attributed to the first [Mansion]...are peculiar to the first part of Aries and never leave this place, although the star (or stars which form the Lunar [Mansion]) may leave it. In a similar way all that is peculiar to Aries does not move away from the place of Aries, although the constellation of Aries does move away." Chronology of the Ancient Nations Sachau, trans. at 338.

So Miguel, are you saying that what the "Arabs did with the Arabic Moon" is that the meaning of each mansion remains the same today as it did centuries ago (beginning with Aries and the spring equinox) even though the original mansion stars have moved to entirely different locations in the tropical zodiac? (Now approximately 24 degrees removed from the original sidereal positions)

Miguel wrote:

Some siderealists recognize there is some seasonal signification in their zodiac.

As the sidereal astrologers I know make it a point to divorce their zodiac from the seasons, I am curious about your source for this statement? I'm referring to modern times as many factors were combined in Ptolemy's time when there was little awareness of which zodiac was referenced.

Miguel hasn’t replied, so perhaps he’s re-thinking his conclusions on the lunar mansions or has lost interest in the topic. In the meantime, I’ve obtained al-Biruni’s best known three books and studied what he says on the lunar mansions.

As Benjamin Dykes notes in Choices and Inceptions (p. 41):

However al-Biruni is not wholly consistent in this approach [to the lunar mansions], or at least does not tell us where he is merely reporting others’ views and offering his own. For on p. 353 he describes how the Moon’s relation to the actual mansion stars is favorable or unfavorable–but if we are supposed to reckon the mansion according to the tropical zodiac, when what would be the point of tracing the Moon’s conjunction with the stars...? [referencing Chronology of Ancient Nations]

This dilemma is repeated in Al-Biruni’s Instruction written 29 years later in 1029 where he states:

Just as the signs are called after the constellations, so the mansions are called after the fixed stars in which the moon is stationed for the night. They begin as in the case of the sun with the vernal equinox.??? (p. 81)

Clearly al-Burini hasn’t thought this problem through as hundreds of years of precession had accumulated between Ptolemy’s time and his own time period.

Also it should be noted that al-Biruni was Persian; He wasn’t an Arab. In Chronology the translator Edward Sachau notes:

Al-Biruni] betrays a strong aversion to the Arabs, the destroyers of Sassanian glory, and a marked predilection for all that is of Persian or Eranian nationality. (p. xiii)

In other words, al-Biruni’s comment about the Arabs relying on the visual clues of stars can be seen more as a criticism of the deficient scholarship of Arabs (in his view) rather than a particular truth regarding the lunar mansions.

Even today there is conflict between those of Persian descent and Arabs, though they share the religion of Islam. (Just do an Internet search for “difference between Persians and Arabs,??? and note the current political situation in the Middle East.) It is understood by Persians that they have a millennia of sophisticated culture behind them that Arabs lack.

(Continued below: more on al-Biruni)