Skyscript Astrology Forum

This is a bit rushed and not proofread very well, but I'm pretty busy with work, so I thought I'd post it anyway.

I thought this might be a good time to take a peek at how Morin might have done things with these charts. I?ll give a little background on his philosophy, and then try to put it into practice. I?m using the Baldwin translation of Book 21, page 42 ?A Single Planet in a House,? and we?ll use Billy Carter?s Jupiter in Capricorn in 1.

First Morin taught that a planet influences the entire planet the same way. Jupiter is Jupiter is Jupiter. However the signs alter the influence of Jupiter and the house determines how this influence is received and how it affects the native. So Jupiter in Cancer does something different than Jupiter in Capricorn. It?s still Jupiter, but the sign affects it.

The sign and aspects determine what he called ?celestial state.? Good celestial state was a planet in domicile, exaltation or triplicity and with some good aspects to boot. Bad celestial stae was the opposite. O course there is a neutral state, too. Terrestrial state is the house position. The usual houses are good and bad.

Furthermore Morin believed that a planet in a house was more influential in the affairs of that house than the ruler due to immediacy. If Mars is in the 5th then Mars makes things happen in 5th house areas when Mars undergoes a direction, or transit. Or the events are more immediate in that house than if the ruler is affected.

So the first thing we do is look at Jupiter in Capricon in Billy Carter?s chart. Jupiter is in fall. He is sextile his dispositor, Saturn and in mutual reception with him, but Saturn is peregrine and of little to no help to Jupiter. Mars, the exaltation ruler is not in aspect but mildly helpful because in Morin?s system he is the Night ruler of fire and is in triplicity. The little bit of good does not outweigh fall. Jupiter is in poor celestial state.But he is still Jupiter and by nature benefic. He is in a good house and will affect Carter?s health, his character, and his intelligence for good or for ill. The situation then is what Morin would call a benefic planet in adverse celestial state in a good house. Here is what he says about that:

? ? a benefic in a fortunate house in a state which is adverse by sign or through aspect either grants nothing, or grants things attended by difficulties or through evil means, or which are best scanty, spurious, unreliable, or of little use.?

Normally we would expect Jupiter in the first house to produce luck and success. Billy was born to a family that owned a successful business and he did run it, but his personal life was a mess. He lost money on Billy Beer, took money from the Libyan government who, in their culture probably thought they were paying for access to the White House, and he ultimately had trouble with the IRS (American tax collection agency). He was born with Jupitarian benefits, he was never able to capityalize on them.

Jupiter in the ASC can be a sign of a long life, but again Jupiter is in Capricorn, in mutual reception with Saturn and is more likely to be a sign of excess to detriment than lasting success.
Morin also believed in a system of the grand trine of houses. The cardinal houses are all trine the cadent and succedent houses. A planet in the first house would then affect those houses as well. The first is trine the 5th and 9th. Morin says a man lives through himself (1st house) his children (5th house) and his God (9th house). Jupiter is a natural for the 9th and a spiritual life, but not in Capricorn. Billy had 6 six children, a number worthy of Jupiter. And Billy?s short life is also shown by Jupiter in Capricorn in mutual reception with Saturn.

Hello Nixx,

Re: "Self praise is no praise James."

Please, read my message again. Yes, I got the challenge right. Yes, it wasn't difficult to do!

My praise was for Noel's methods as outlined in one particular book.

There's no praise for me to even be given, except for being open enough to give the book a chance.

When you turn on the light, do you feel like Thomas Edison? With each phone call received, do you envision yourself as Alexander Graham Bell?

When using Noel's methodology, he deserves the praise, he is the one that spent the time working the kinks out as they say and presenting them. I only have used those methods, the same that everyone else could do by just applying themselves to them.

All the praise was for Noel's methods. I had to mention that I got the challenge correct, of course, or there would be no foundation from which to give praise. There are dozens of astrology books/texts that would have clearly lead to the wrong answers. Let us not praise those.

Re: "When one revisits your options you suggested chart 3 was likely to be a famous fellow, well he isn?t really is he."

No, he's just had a beer named after him, is the (well-known to anyone over 40) brother of a president, and the cause of a Senate investigation, named BillyGate, relating to foreign money that he received. There were times in Jimmy Carter's presidency when Billy got more press than the president. So of course, no, he's not famous at all...he's just like the rest of us "no names."

It's funny too, because I had thought of infamy. When I read that it was Billy Carter, I suddenly thought about how he was portrayed as basically the alcoholic, hillbilly, non-cultured brother of the president and then the chart made perfect sense in that regard. He was famous, but it wasn't a "good" kind of famous.

Re: "Tom has already started he will be using ?known? folks so we can deduce they will all be a little ?famous? in any event."

I did not know that they were famous. I totally did not pick up on that at all. I had asked to have non-Googleable challenges, because I don't want to spend an hour on astrology and post about it, only to be shown up by someone's "astrology" who spent a full 5 minutes in Google or Wikipedia.

Peace

James

Hello Paul,

Thank you for the very reasonable comments. As I've said before, your logic is impeccable. You have a way of seeing right through side-issues and groundless arguments and cut right to the chase.

The bottom line is my motive, which was, as always, to be helpful where possible.

I expected to get on here today, and see a couple of thank you's and a quip or two about Noel since his NAME seems to be the scapegoat from time to time. What I did not expect was 1) for anyone to see my post as self-promotion or 2) to have the method's success in this challenge be chalked up to statistically insignificant. And really, if this method hasn't earned the right to at least take credit since it DID work this time, then neither does anyone else's! We'll all just keep quiet now, and come back for discussion after the hundredth successful challenge. [I must admit that it's funny to have a state mathematics award and find myself talked down to as if I have no understanding of probability and statistics. That should be the tagline for the whole internet. "The internet, a wonderful place where everyone gets to be an expert, no knowledge required."]

James

"I would be very curious to see this chart analyzed by hellenistic and Tyl's vocation method.

No rush.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Bardot,_Brigitte

PD"

Hello, this would be my interpretation of this chart using Tyl's vocation method...we're dealing here with an actress, model, animal rights activist/politics, and an autobiographer/writer.

The Libra MC leads to Venus (5, 6), which contacts Pluto (12). Venus is disposited by and is in mutual reception with Mercury (7, 9). The Moon {8} contacts the MC, Nodes, Jupiter, and Neptune (3). Mars contacts the MC and the Sun {8}.

Now, that was the "easy" part. The "hard" part is knowing how the above signifies each of Ms. Bardot's aforementioned vocations.

And truly, the best answer I can give to that is to read Tyl's book on vocations, and practice his method with as many charts as you can. After a certain amount of time, you will begin to understand, as certain themes will be repeated...

Thanks, Jim

Perhaps you could post a bit about the various channels. I think that traditional astrologers could still use this info right away.

Follow dispositor trail out of the Midheaven and through planets in aspect with the Midheaven with a heavy focus on houses ruled, planets involved and signs tenanted and use that to find the activated channels.

You've gone through quite a lot of this (ie. studied many examples) and have the added benefit of also being quite good in vedic! How helpful would you say this method is to finding the main career thrusts for a person?

Have you worked examples where the indicated main channel(s) really have no connection to the person's career?

You have much much more experience in this than I do. (there, that's my self-praise for today)

I must admit that I find this a very interesting topic. Also, you have seen my chart. When I look at the six channels, they have ALL been strong interests, though not all through career outlets. How do you see this element of this process. ie. what makes it career/vocation "worthy" info as opposed to just interests, etc.?

I always feel like I should be going in six different directions and find that I have about enough time/energy for two at any given time!

Do you see clients? Do you use any of these insights directly?

Thanks for sharing!

James

Hello again James!

Wow, five questions for me--in one post?! LOL, welcome to the new site!

Perhaps I should first address something else that is extremely relevant here. Within the first few minutes of a typical consultation session, Noel almost always asks his client, "What do you do for a living?"

He then takes the answer that is given him and checks to see how well it "fits" his vocational methodology and delineation of that particular horoscope. He then proceeds accordingly.

What I want to emphasize here is that Noel's vocational methodology is not used to guess the client's occupation. He prefers to emphasize instead what the horoscope suggests are vocational "needs". And in turn, he defines "needs" similar to how his professor at Harvard, Henry Murray, defined the term. All of this needs to be taken into account.

And perhaps it would be best to present the five different vocational channels in another post...

But yes, I do see clients, I use these insights directly, dialogue with the client helps to discern whether it is more a vocation or an interest, it is rare to find that a "main" channel has no connection to a person's job, and the Tyl vocational method is an excellent way to engage the client in meaningful vocational dialogue.

Thanks, Jim

Any further discussion we have should break out into it's own (General) thread, since it no longer would directly relate to the Mystery Chart, let alone Traditional methods.

I hope you'll continue on its own thread, because I firmly believe as you do, that this is very helpful information. Vocation, Love/Sex, Money, and Health cover the main astrological inquiries from clients. This method is a shortcut to a few, very good career/vocation insights.

Take care

James

Please be careful about going into the details of techniques given by modern authors in this forum, unless we are looking at how they connect with traditional principles. Otherwise (and this will be a shame) posts will be deleted and that will be a waste of good time and energy, not to mention potentially good information. The place to discuss and examine Tyl's techniques is in the general nativities forum. Keep in mind that the focus of this forum should always be kept on what is reported in traditional works.

And - welcome to the forum Jim!

i have an idea for jim and atlantean - why not post a thread on noel tyl and his techniques.. that way anyone who is interested can read all about it - assuming they don't have the imagination to go to noel tyls site to see it first hand.. i am reluctant to comment on what i perceive as a blatant promotion of noel tyls methods, but i will say one thing.. the 1 or 2 times i tried to comment on the vocational exercises on tyls forum i was taken to task immediately by noel tyl himself.. he informed me how i wasn't adhering to his method and to not bother until i had it down.. i read his book and i found some value and some of no value.. one can quickly say this has everything to do with me.. what i can say without hesitation is the graciousness of the host and many of the posters here at this site far outshines my experience attempting to get involved on noel tyl forums vocational exercise..

consider starting a separate thread.. respond to me directly if you want or not on that thread.. i will put my sunglasses on vwhen altantean is posting..

james_m wrote:i am reluctant to comment on what i perceive as a blatant promotion of noel tyls methods

I'm not sure why this is such a problem.
First of all Atlantean got the correct answer. Not just once, but on all three charts. Everyone has detailed their thought process for these charts, Atlantean is no exception. He has demonstrated that his technique worked in this example and that the technique is based primarily on work by Noel Tyl.

Why is this so horrendous? Is posting a link to Noel's book somehow scandalous? If so why? I know I have, in the past, blatantly promoted the work of Bonatti. I wasn't even hiding the fact. I posted a quote directly from Bonatti's work and even went so far as to praise Ben Dyke's for his translations. Was this wrong of me too? If not, what is the difference? How about those who link or quote from William Lilly? Is the only difference that Noel Tyl is still alive?

I think the main point of the post was for Atlantean to say "This is what I used, for more information click this link"

It's just a link. There are no google style tracking codes appended to it that would, for example, generate revenue for Atlantean by tracking clicks. It's just an astrology book.

The irony is that in everyone wanting to not give credit to Tyl's work, so much discussion has surrounded it that actually with each post on this topic more and more interest in Tyl's book has been generated.

When a technique appears to work why wouldn't you promote it?

I want to revise a comment I made on p.3 of this thread. Talking about my decision to consider Venus on the MC weak when in its sign of detriment and combust I said I hadn't noticed any traditional author stating that combustion doesn't apply to Venus or Mercury. Then I said:

There seems to be a general view nowadays that Mercury is more immune because it spends much more time around the Sun. I'm not sure if Morin said something about that - perhaps Tom will know. I give Mercury more leeway because I see it as the 'announcer' precisely because when it is oriental it announces the rising of the Sun. So I do believe that Mercury has a special role to play in extending out solar principles.

I just noticed this comment from Abu Ma'shars's Libri Mysterium, (II, 178 - the link to the English translation is here):

... when Venus is burned it becomes absolutely weak and without strength and it cannot really bear combustion; but when Mercury, which bears combustion, becomes burned, it is similar to a man accustomed to difficulties and to miseries and poverty and who bears such things since they are familiar to him ...

So at least one traditional reference to support the view that Mercury has a certain immunity to the worst of the effects of combustion; but not Venus.

Thank you Deb for the welcome and the invite, much appreciated! I had no idea things were so "traditional" here. Definitely a challenge for my highly Aquarian nature, lol. While I certainly respect whatever method one chooses to practice, for me doing it only one way suggests a win-lose mentality, or, "Heads I win, and tails you lose" type of mindset.

And when a win-lose situation occurs, I do agree that much "potentially good information" will not be given the opportunity to present itself.

So, in order to respect your desire here to only honor tradition, I will check out the general nativities forum...

Thank you again!