Well, I put my money on Spain before the tournament started, having checked out all their match charts beforehand. I also said

The Jupiter/Uranus conjunction in Aries suggests "now for something completely different". The WC being played on African soil for the first time could be the "something completely different", but it might also indicate a country that hasn't won before, e.g. Spain

This also applies to Holland of course

Sun is hour-ruler so chart is non-radical. It is also L7 which favours the underdog. The Moon conjoins Sun during the game. Under normal circumstances this might well indicate a win for Holland but we have an eclipse going on here so perhaps a different approach is needed. For one thing, I'm not sure how reliable or effective the testimonies of the hour-ruler can be in this situation. I see the Sun signifying Holland both as L7 (underdog) and colourwise (orange). The Moon signifies the favourite, Spain, and it eclipses the Sun. This would indicate a win for Spain.

Finally, Saturn (dark blue = Spain) above horizon; Sun (orange = Holland) below. I'm sticking with Spain

So Rohan, you've said you think there'll be a penalty shoot-out but who do you think will win?

Well, Rohan Paul the Octopus has spoken. Let's see what the chart potentially indicates in favour of Spain.
First I notice that the chart is not radical. It is the day and hour of Sun who is not happy with Aquarius ASC. It is usally the first indication that the result may be moved away from the favourite. R Neptun, R Chiron and Black Moon disposition on ASC may also mean that we could not get the expected result.

The chart becomes radical approx 20:56 when the hour changes to Moon's with ASC in Pisces.

Spain is favourite and its deep blue kit agrees with Aquarius ASC and its ruler Saturn. Holland is DSC.
There is no material difference in acc and ess dignities.
Saturn is above the horizon in a favorable condition than Sun which is below and going to be eclipsed by the Moon.
POF and POS on ascendent, as always when there is Moon's conjunction with Sun, seems to favour Spain.
The Moon is making only two aspects - sextile with Mars, L10 (the aspect perfects when the Moon is in Cazimi), and conjunction with the Sun. Conjunction, trine and sextile between luminaries is a strong advantage for the favourite.

Saturn, L1, and Mars, L10 in Virgo with their dispositor Mercury in Leo also may suggest that ASC team gets the Cup. However, Saturn, L1, is in the last degree of Virgo which may import some disaster to ASC team.
But Uran's R, the modern ruler of Aquarius, trine with A POF I consider as an advantage for ASC team.

The chart seems to be more promising for Spain if we attribute Jupiter as its significator which is in Aries and matches well with Spain's deep blue kit.

As follows from the football charts with Spain's participation (including semi-final Germany -Spain), Spain is ruled by Sagitarius rather than Aquarius, however, no doubt, in Spain charts there is a strong Aquarian element. Spanish mentality has little to do with Aquarius which is attributable to a Northern mentality (Scandinaves, Russians for example).

Sun, L7, is in mutual reception with Jupiter by exaltation, natural significator of success and triumph, which could suggests that the Sun, L1, puts Jupiter (Spain) on a pedestal.

What do we have in favour of Holland? Sun, lord of day and hour is also the lord of DSC, is disposed in V, in Cancer, the sign Holland is ruled by. Moon, dispositor of Sun, in her sign is promising for the water country, in particular taking into account that she is going into Cazimi during the match and so gets strenghened. She may get the gold.
Venus, L4, on DSC seems also to be an advantage for DSC team.
Cancer is N and V house is NNW which may be indication for Holland.

Rohan, you said that there could be penalties. I am rather sceptic about this. Yes, we have fixed angles but we have a cardinal Moon and Sun. The latter indication should prevail. In Germany - Spain, in addition to fixed angles, we had a fixed Moon and the game ended in regular time.

Rohan wrote:The discussion is getting hot now Where are our experts? Ficina, Daz, Goca, Janis where are u? We are running out of time. Do not take extra time Octopus has given the verdict. But our experts agree with him????

Holland vs Spain
11 July 2010 Johannesburg asc=28Aq52
Holland will play in orange so they are DSC. We see their ruler Su in Can, quite fits for country with numerous rivers and lakes. Holland is under Can sign.
ASc and its ruler Sa then represent Spain. Away kit for Spain is darkblue, quite fit with Aq and ruler Sa. There are not so much difference between dignities for Sa and Su, so we look for Moon;s aspect within 5 degrees. We have sextile with Ma ruler of 10th and then conjunction with Su ruler of 7 house, so in my opinion Holland will win. Also, asc ruler Sa is on last degree, sign of misfortune.
Match is on the day of eclipse in Can, sign of Holland. Eclipses can help you do things you never thought you could do. So, Holland will be WCup champion for the first time!

Hi Janis/Ficina,

Interesting analysis.

Just one point. I agree its worth checking the planetary hour ruler(s).
I just dont follow the logic that an event chart is ever radical or not radical? The idea of radicality surely stems from horary and the validity of a question? What has it got to do with an event chart?

Incidentally, I go for Spain. Fundamentally, I take the view that we need a larger context than one event chart. The mundane charts (1975 and 1479) are strongly pointing to Spain in my view. On its own though the event chart is difficult with negatives for both sides.

However, lets play! I haven't been following the tournament match charts much so this may be wildly off. The new Moon/eclipse obscures the light of the Sun. Plus the Moon is burnt up. Not good for a Cancer associated country symbolised by accidental significator as the Sun. The Moon disposits the Sun here so it can be argued it is less damaging. However, this logic cannot change the astronomical reality. I think cazimi is overrated ( I will change my view if Holland win!). There is always an element of the combustion cycle in a synodic conjunction. The Moon is both visually and symbolically dying here. Clearly, I am missing something though as Ficina indicates a new Moon often indicates the winner? I clearly need to look at more charts!

By whole sign the New Moon/eclipse takes place in the cadent 6th house. The Sun is below the earth and therefore out of sect. Its also in a feminine sign making it even more out harmony. The south Node in the 6th whole sign house disposited by the Moon adds to the unfavourable indicators. The Part of Fortune and Part of Spirit on the ASC seems to give Spain that luck and willpower they need to win. Both are disposited by Saturn. North node in the fortunate 11th house is disposited by Saturn.

Still the negatives -Saturn in last degree in the idle 8th house, Neptune on the ascendant.....that does seem quite contradictory and dare I say it confusing. Plus Saturn is in aversion to the ascendant in the 8th house. It literally cannot see the ascendant. This would be seen as a strong negative to the Greek and Arabic astrologers. Still, Lord 7 is also in aversion to its house (whole sign) and in the turned 12th house. Saturn in its last degree. However, according to Egyptian terms that puts it in its own term so it is not peregrine. Also using orb for antiscion used by Lily (3 degrees) Saturn is in antiscion with Jupiter.

I had also thought this might go to penalties. The fact that Saturn is in the 8th and Sun in the 6th (whole sign) in aversion to the 7th house adds to that sense of neither side being that dynamic. I expect it to be goaless in first half at least. Both teams have their problems. Also Neptune on the ASC. A penalty shoot out or something like own goals, controversial referee decision etc. Mars is also in the 8th house (whole sign) indicating the referee will not be that brilliant. However, he will favour Saturn being in the same house. Plus the dispositor of Saturn and Mars ( MC ruler) is Mercury which forms a trine to Jupiter. Jupiter is the 2nd/11th house ruler symbolising the resources Spain bring to the match. Dutch fans can argue Mercury is Lord 2 in the turned chart for them and forms a trine to the turned Lord 5 (Jupiter). However, Jupiter is also Lord 8 in the turned chart..... Overall for mundane reasons Jupiter is more likely to deliver for Spain in Aries due its placement in that sign in the Spanish national chart plus Jupiter is of course the traditional planet for Spain.

Mark

I look at Spain chart here:
http://members.tripod.com/tra_nations/a_spain.htm

and I really do not see how it could be fine for Spain when on that day we have transiting SNode in conjunction with natal Moon in 6 house of Spain chart?

I look at Spain chart here:
http://members.tripod.com/tra_nations/a_spain.htm

and I really do not see how it could be fine for Spain when on that day we have transiting SNode in conjunction with natal Moon in 6 house of Spain chart?

You do have a good point about the SN being on the Spanish national chart (1975) Moon in Cancer. I am sure you know we can trade these kind of points to build up /critique a chosen chart. However, just to clarify I was fundamentally making the point that both the Spanish 1975 and 1479 charts align to the signs on the angles of ASC /MC here. Plus the 10th house in Scorpio in the final coincides with MC, North Node, Mercury, Sun in the Spanish national chart (1975). Its a question of what you put greater emphasis on as I see it. Here is a link displaying the 1479 chart for Spain too. Interestingly, the Moon is in Sagittarius in the 1479 chart strengthening the Sagittarius/Jupiter link to Spain.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/countries/spain.php

Some useful transits here. Tr Jupiter forms a sextile to Sun (1479), Tr Uranus forms sextile to ASC and Uranus (1479), Tr Mars sextile Venus (1479), Tr Saturn trine Mercury (1479 -Lord 5).

Mark

Here is a link displaying the 1479 chart for Spain too.

It was the 1479 chart that I originally used to make my forecast when the world cup started. But I did not have a time ( I used noon- as an aside I'd love to know where they got 7 a.m. from), but it was not the natal chart so much that caught my eye but the secondary progressed one.

Having said that, when I subsequently realised there was an eclipse and that the Sun was not visible anyway due to it being night time I was less convinced.

I guess when we see the outcome we'll know for the next time the world cup final falls during a nightime solar eclipse

MarkC wrote: Incidentally, I go for Spain. Fundamentally, I take the view that we need a larger context than one event chart. The mundane charts (1975 and 1479) are strongly pointing to Spain in my view. On its own though the event chart is difficult with negatives for both sides.

Up until two min ago I thought that we only had two options> Asc-team (Spain) as a winner or Desc-team (Holland) as a winner.
Then I came up with a third option Honestly!

As MarkC has already mentioned, current transits work better for Spain and when the charts of the two countries are compared, I'm pretty sure that Spain will win
At the same time, I grounded my last prediction in the fact that the ruler of the Ascendant is in a very malefic house and thought that germany (then represented by saturn) will lose. Saturn inside the 8th- unattractive performance, weakness and loss. I am aware that there are certain rules here and that, at least technically, the placement of a ruler above the horizon brings some extra points but, this still is an event chart and the fact that the ruler of the ascendant placed inside the 8th brings misfortune is a generally applicable rule (I may be wrong).
Neptune on the Ascendant brings illusions, tears and disappointment.

So, if the Ascendant goes to Spain in this new chart then, I just have to follow the same logic and say that it is now their ruler that looks weak, it is them who will most likely lose the game and it is their supporters who will eventually cry. BUT, the mundane charts say that it will probably be the other way around. This is where the third options comes into the game - what if the Dutch team decides to play in their away kit? It is the final, everything is possible. Both teams have got enough time to wash and dry both kits! For me, that would be a much less confusing scenario. Spain would get the Descendant, the mundane charts also puts them in the position of the possible winner...everything fits.

Anyway, I still vote for Spain!
The octopus has spoken!

I guess when we see the outcome we'll know for the next time the world cup final falls during a nightime solar eclipse

Aglaya wrote:

I am aware that there are certain rules here and that, at least technically, the placement of a ruler above the horizon brings some extra points

Well the ancients would have considered both Saturn and the Sun as poor here in terms of planetary sect. A diurnal planet like Saturn is not at its best in a night chart. Its also in a feminine sign here. Plus being above the horizon is not desirable for a diurnal planet in a night chart according to hellenistic authorities! Then we find Saturn in the 'idle' 8th house. Saturn is also occidental of the Sun (ie in its waning phase) which is traditionally less desirable. Still it is in its terms (Egyptian). However, Saturn is in aversion (cannot see) the Ascendant.

So the Sun is better then? Not necessarily. Its out of sect too being below the horizon in a night chart. Its also against its sect in a feminine sign. The Sun lacks essential dignity and is peregrine. Cancer zodiacally is the 12th sign from the domicile of the Sun. Using the same logic many traditional writers ( Culpeper, Morin etc) considered the Moon at its weakest in Gemini (following Scorpio and Capricorn) as the 12th sign from its domicile. However, it can be argued that while the Moon is weakened by the eclipse the Sun is not. The eclipse is not visible in this night chart anyway. Moreover, with the Moon dispositing the Sun and in its own domicile is arguably not damaged by the conjunction with the Sun. Still it cannot be denied the Moon is Lord 6. Hardly positive. Plus I tend to look at whole sign significations. If one works from that view the Sun is in the 6th house (12th house of turned chart). That is an even more unpleasant house than the 8th house! Equally, The Sun is in aversion (cannot see) its sign of domicile rulership.

A plague on both their houses! This is part of the reason I suggested a penalty shoot out. I hope I am completely wrong about that. As a viewer of the match I would much prefer something more exciting.

Still this final will be an interesting test of whole sign vs quadrant houses.

Incidentally, the hellenistic astrologers considered the place (house) of acquisition as the 11th house from the house of the the Part of Fortune. That falls in Sagittarius herre. Another clue?

Mark

I have just made an additional discovery about the new moon. In Madrid it is exactly at Sunset ( i.e on Descendant). Surely that has got to mean something?

In the NL it occurs about 10 mins before sunset.

Hi Mark,

I agree its worth checking the planetary hour ruler(s).
I just dont follow the logic that an event chart is ever radical or not radical? The idea of radicality surely stems from horary and the validity of a question? What has it got to do with an event chart?

It was Andrew who originally introduced this idea into football event chart analysis. There's a long thread on the subject somewhere in this section of the forum. It's not radicality in the horary sense but what we're saying is 'there's planetary hour agreement with the Ascendant or the Ascendant ruler'. It's just quicker to say 'radical' It means that things will happen as expected, i.e. the favourite wins - or at least it's a favourable testimony for the favourite and can sometimes act as a deciding factor. There's a lot more to it than this. Different types of planetary hour agreement indicate different types of results, some types are more reliable than others etc.

Fundamentally, I take the view that we need a larger context than one event chart.

Well, I'd disagree with you there but it doesn't really matter I think it's great that you and others are using different methods to get at a result. We all use the method or methods that we prefer, feel most comfortable with or familiar with etc. Several of us have been using event charts alone for a long, long time and are happy that they work often enough to continue using them. Not that we don't look at other methods from time to time, but anyway, I've said enough on this I think!

Clearly, I am missing something though as Ficina indicates a new Moon often indicates the winner?

I didn't say that Maybe you misunderstood something I said or I didn't express myself clearly.

Ficina wrote:

It was Andrew who originally introduced this idea into football event chart analysis. There's a long thread on the subject somewhere in this section of the forum. It's not radicality in the horary sense but what we're saying is 'there's planetary hour agreement with the Ascendant or the Ascendant ruler'. It's just quicker to say 'radical' It means that things will happen as expected, i.e. the favourite wins - or at least it's a favourable testimony for the favourite and can sometimes act as a deciding factor. There's a lot more to it than this. Different types of planetary hour agreement indicate different types of results, some types are more reliable than others etc.

Ah I see thanks. Sounds interesting. Most of the threads here just take all this for granted. I would appreciate it if you can indicate any older threads where this kind of issue came up.

MarkC wrote:

Fundamentally, I take the view that we need a larger context than one event chart.

Ficina wrote:

Well, I'd disagree with you there but it doesn't really matter I think it's great that you and others are using different methods to get at a result. We all use the method or methods that we prefer, feel most comfortable with or familiar with etc. Several of us have been using event charts alone for a long, long time and are happy that they work often enough to continue using them. Not that we don't look at other methods from time to time, but anyway, I've said enough on this I think!

Well I am open to being completely wrong about this. You have an awful lot more experience of this kind of astrology than I do. I am a real newbie to this stuff. Maybe coming at this from mundane charts is just keeping within my comfort zone.

MarkC wrote:

Clearly, I am missing something though as Ficina indicates a new Moon often indicates the winner?

Ficina wrote:

I didn't say that Maybe you misunderstood something I said or I didn't express myself clearly.

Yes I clearly got the wrong end of the stick. This was the bit:

Ficina wrote:

The Moon signifies the favourite, Spain, and it eclipses the Sun. This would indicate a win for Spain.

I can see what you meant now. Quite a relief actually!

Mark