I came to that Eris/Ceres/Uranus conjunction on the eve of the referendum because like Mark I don't really work with asteroids or the trans Neptunian planets so I hadn't noticed it. It was James's mention of it in that relocated SR chart that drew my attention to it in the Opening Poll chart.

I did some work on the fixed stars where this conjunction was located. I've been itching to tell people what I discovered because it seems to me that the whole character of the referendum result seems to be in this conjunction.

These are the exact longitude positions (so far as I can calculate) of the planets involved in that conjunction at 7 am on 23rd June:-

Eris 23 Aries 33

Ceres 23 Aries 54

Uranus 23 Aries 58

This conjunction took place mainly in the "modern" constellation of Fornax the furnace but with one star each in Andromeda and Eridanus. Star positions as follows :-

Star 703 Fornax 23 Aries 30
Star Psi Fornax 23 Aries 38
Star 20868 Fornax 23 Aries 39
Star 157 Andromeda 23 Aries 50
Star 968 Eridanus 23 Aries 55
Star Eta 1 Fornax 24 Aries 01

Note that 968 Eridanus is within 1 minute of Ceres which is in between Eris and Uranus. The constellation Eridanus has the mythology of Phaethon crashing the Sun Chariot catastrophically into the River Eridanus.
Both Eris and Uranus are within a 3 minute orb of Fornax stars, Eta 1 being the highest magnitude and thus a significant star within that constellation. Uranus is applyng to this star!
Fornax is the furnace of chemistry and alchemical transformation. The Andromeda constellation concerns the chained, sacrificed woman. (I have drawn attention elsewhere to this star culminating at 7.02 am )

I worked all this out on the eve of the referendum and then wrote the following in my notebook which I propped up on my desk until the result the next day :-

"Are we to crash and burn in a cataclysmic event with Andromeda needing to be rescued from her chains or will be be transformed alchemically?"

Metaphorical obviously, but this conjunction and where it falls does seem to me to characterise the result of the referendum.

Congratulations on your congratulations Mark. You certainly deserve them.

Some notes regarding the vote.

Simple transit to natal chart. Powerful effect of transiting midpoint to natal chart.

http://www.dominantstar.com/a_eec2.htm

Jan 1, 1958, 00.00.00. AM CET (-01), Brussels, 4E20'00"; 50N50'00"

Asc: 29Vi36; Mc: 29Ge29

Source: "The EEC came into existence at 00.00 hrs on 1 January 1958. " Chart calculated "for the administrative capital, Brussels." Campion, "The Book of World Horoscopes," p. 478.

*** PARANS TO FIXED STARS ***

European Union - Natal Chart
Jan 1 1958, 0:00 am, CET -1:00
Brussels Belgium 50?N50' 004?E20'

MC 089?26'
IC 269?26'


*** PARANS TO FIXED STARS ***

England leaves European Union - Natal Chart
Jun 24 2016, 6:00 am, CEDT -2:00 (Decisive point in time of vote count)
Brussels Belgium 50?N50' 004?E20'

Upper
Saturn 250?21'
Pluto 287?45'

(250?21' + 287?45' = 538?06' / 2 = 269?03' - was at 269?04' at 10 pm, BST, on the 23rd in London)

*** END REPORT ***

Coronation Of Wm I (Not timed) Used by some as chart for England.

Dec 25 1066, 0:00 am, LMT +0:00:36
West Minster England 51?N30' 000?W09'
Geocentric Tropical Zodiac

In the 1066 chart for England Mercury is at 287?23'. Transit Pluto at 10 pm, BST on June 23 was at 287?46'. At 5 am on the 24th it was at 287?45'.

Brilliant thread Mark. Plus the other summary one with all the techniques listed. Best thing on this mundane forum, ever.

I've also sent you a p.m. (no pun intended)

One of the best ever threads on skyscript.

Great work, Mark.

I thought some of you might be interested in this map showing how the UK voted in the EU referendum by constituent country and English region.

Mark wrote:
Thanks for joining our discussion Alex. So if I understand you correctly your point is that in comparison to 1993 when Britain signed the Maastricht Treaty bringing the Single European Act into being the 1801 chart doesn't show the kind of activity you would be expecting? Are you judging that by just transits or other predictive tools like solar returns, progressions, solar arcs, profections etc? I should say I dont exclusively rely on the 1801 chart for the UK or indeed national charts full change. The Aries ingress for London this year is quite dramatic with Mars on the MC. Still if you are correct on the outcome that is a useful insight to research further.

Thanks Mark
I always have one main or initial chart like the natal chart. Other chart are used for comparison with the main chart

It basically transits in a given period, when it was some changes.

On this topic is mentioned a lot of maps and data, but still not enough for me, because I do not know enough history UK, the political situation, all the important events, etc.

With that I was deprived of some information that could possibly give a better picture, and help to precisely decipher the astrological symbols.

Mark wrote: A lot of astrologers say this. But I question this. First David Cameron has been having a torrid year. Any astrology that suggests his life is going fine this year is a bit suspicious. I wrote a very extensive piece here explaining why Cameron had such a bad solar return chart this year. And using profections there is considerable conflict and opposition indicated this year. Solar arcs pick that up too. And looking at this from a modern perspective Cameron is struggling with a Pluto square. So I cant agree there are no 'bad signs' in his chart. Whether all that is enough that he will lose this referendum is the disputed question though.

Based on Pl transit to Cameron So I predicted his victory in the elections. Again based on events in his history. This transit is still going on and that's why I said "David Cameron does not have at the moment any signs of bad period or losing his position"

I still think it will remain PM

Mark wrote: Quite a few astrologers think there is enough going on in that chart to suggest a Brexit. But are they right? We will know soon enough if your view is vindicated!

Anyway, I appreciate your comments and respect your view. I hope you join in some more discussions here.

Mark

Yes, this chart indicates the most changes. However it must be confirmed by the main chart (natal chart)
Natal chart allows changes in but smaller changes compared to in 1993.

In fact I did not even predicted the result of the referendum already the current situation based on UK chart in 1801

Since the spring of next year can expect some significant changes in the UK. This can be but not have to be caused by the current events (Brexit).

Thank you once again Mark

sorry for my english...
Alex

alex62 wrote: Based on Pl transit to Cameron So I predicted his victory in the elections. Again based on events in his history. This transit is still going on and that's why I said "David Cameron does not have at the moment any signs of bad period or losing his position"

I still think it will remain PM

Alex

hi alex! i am not singling you out here, but using it as an opening to talk about how different astrologers use different systems or techniques to arrive at different conclusions.. i too thought cameron would be re-elected, but i focused on the nodal axis going over his venus/libra rising.. for me, it didn't have to do with the pluto transit! both of us are stuck with the thought it could have been either! which is it? does any astrologer know?

this is one argument for why many outside the world of astrology will look at the myriad options astrologers have to come to a conclusion and think there is no fool proof system to come to a conclusion.. and, frankly - i think they would be right!!

it is a bit the same here with this brexit vote... breaking it down into modern, traditional, or eclectic astrological approaches does as much to muddy the waters as it does to clarify anything, but those that like their walls of separation will continue to use them... what was the technique that was used to predict the outcome one way or the other? there were countless techniques and approaches!

i go back to a comment that fleur made on page 2 -

Fleur wrote:One thing that struck me is how some people are analysing the miniscule transiting sextiles of the exact moment of the vote. That seems more like casting the bones than looking at what is happening in time. Surely this is more about the big slow moving planets that are simply triggered at a particular time? And when you take a snapshot of one moment in time, that doesn't take account of aspects that happened prior to that moment and is simply being triggered?
....
An event is not an entity, it is a transit to something else. I was even thinking that the 1993 EU chart is actually a transit to something, it is not an entity. And the chart for the Brexit vote is a different kind of transit to whatever it was that was being transited in 1993.

mark tried to clarify for fleur the idea of outer planet transits not being given the same focus in traditional astrology as modern astrology.. fine.. however regardless of the approach one uses - there is a difference looking at the astrology with a microscope verses using a telescope.. everyone is going to examine the data in their own way and there is a lot of ways to do this too! while one approach might not make sense to one person, it makes a lot of sense to another!

i continue to see astrology as a type of art form.. the interpretations are very individual.. how we see the astrology has a lot of subjectivity built into it..

and finally - a vote that is so close doesn't have the sharp outlines given a yes or no - winner take all - that it looks like it has after the fact! 52 to 48 percent is still quite close...

james_m wrote:

alex62 wrote: Based on Pl transit to Cameron So I predicted his victory in the elections. Again based on events in his history. This transit is still going on and that's why I said "David Cameron does not have at the moment any signs of bad period or losing his position"

I still think it will remain PM

Alex

hi alex! i am not singling you out here, but using it as an opening to talk about how different astrologers use different systems or techniques to arrive at different conclusions.. i too thought cameron would be re-elected, but i focused on the nodal axis going over his venus/libra rising.. for me, it didn't have to do with the pluto transit! both of us are stuck with the thought it could have been either! which is it? does any astrologer know?

this is one argument for why many outside the world of astrology will look at the myriad options astrologers have to come to a conclusion and think there is no fool proof system to come to a conclusion.. and, frankly - i think they would be right!!

it is a bit the same here with this brexit vote... breaking it down into modern, traditional, or eclectic astrological approaches does as much to muddy the waters as it does to clarify anything, but those that like their walls of separation will continue to use them... what was the technique that was used to predict the outcome one way or the other? there were countless techniques and approaches!

I understand what you mean ... but not a problem in the astrological techniques ...

The essence is in check. This is my way of working. In this case with Cameron I was referred to the period when the previous time had the same aspect.

I researched through his biography period when the last time was that aspect. In the previous aspect had a very successful period in school. This means that the current period is also successful for him. Especially because it is already, with weaker aspects, became prime minister. Now he does not need to be good aspects to keep the position of prime minister and he has during elections the best aspects until now and that is why it swept competition in elections.

So the point is to test how person react to a particular aspect into the past.
This is the only way to correct prognosis, but it should be sufficiently accurate data...

sorry for my English

Alex

Alex62 wrote:

On this topic is mentioned a lot of maps and data, but still not enough for me, because I do not know enough history UK, the political situation, all the important events, etc.

With that I was deprived of some information that could possibly give a better picture, and help to precisely decipher the astrological symbols.

Thanks Alex,

Its good you raise these points as I can sometimes forget people come here from very different cultures. And I do understand its all the more difficult if English is not your first language.

I dont think it is probably realistic of me to seek to fill in all the historical , social, economic, and political context of issues on this forum. But i do concede it is more difficult to discuss the political astrology of a country without that kind of background.

The best recommendation I can make in terms of finding out more about the astrology of various countries is to buy a copy of Nicholas Campion's Book of World Horoscopes. This is pretty much a Bible for political astrologers and a book that will reward your investment over and over again. I dont know if this book has been translated into Serbo-Croat or not.

However, for the the traditional technique of the using ingress charts I suggest you make a start with this article by Deborah Houlding:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/ingresses.html

Alex62 wrote:

Based on Pl transit to Cameron So I predicted his victory in the elections. Again based on events in his history. This transit is still going on and that's why I said "David Cameron does not have at the moment any signs of bad period or losing his position"

Well I wouldn't feel bad about that assessment Alex. A lot of very experienced astrologers came to exactly the same conclusion that David Cameron would not lose the referendum because his chart looked too strong. For example Marjorie commented earlier this year:

''....all in all, I?d doubt the UK would leave ? from the astrology I mean. Cameron?s charts look too chipper to fail at the moment.''

If a highly experienced political astrologer like Marjorie Orr can go astray I dont think you should be so hard on yourself Alex.


Mark

I also think Alex does very well with English not being his first language.

I find it very difficult to distinguish the good from the bad in astrology. Squares and oppositions for instance often seem to bring success. I think it was particularly hard to assess David Cameron's position after he won a general election only last year. How to see him losing after a short space of time?

In my "post mortem" of this referendum I came to the conclusion that with this problem in mind I needed to have focussed very closely on the day in question rather than look at the overall trends for this year in Cameron's chart.

I charted a lunar return for both Johnson and Cameron the day before the referendum (should have done it sooner) directed their planets to the 23rd and came up with what I regarded as more favourable directions for Johnson with several square directions for Cameron. However I still couldn't trust myself to make a prediction for Johnson/Leave to win because the squares could still mean success perhaps.

What was particularly revealing though were the profections a la Vettius Valens in my Janus software for the 2 1/2 days around the referendum. Johnson's Pars Hyleg conjoin Part of Fortune "gave" to his MC conjoining North node. Cameron's House 10 gave to House 12, his Mc gave to Pluto conjoining Uranus and his House 8 gave to House 10.
Now I do find these profections compelling evidence.

Add this to the fixed star influences I saw in the Opening Poll chart I feel I should have been able to predict for the Leave campaign even though I have little competence in either horary astrology or ingress charts ! Must put that right!

Good experience and I shall use these methods in the future but I foresee
a problem already with the Conservative leadership contest. There is no birth time given for Theresa May!

alex62 wrote:
I researched through his biography period when the last time was that aspect. In the previous aspect had a very successful period in school. This means that the current period is also successful for him.

So the point is to test how person react to a particular aspect into the past.
This is the only way to correct prognosis, but it should be sufficiently accurate data...

sorry for my English

Alex

hi alex, thanks for your comments here! i agree with vicki - your english seems very good!

i am getting off track of the topic here and am responsible for bringing this up, so this will be my last comment on a topic we could start up on another thread!

i responded to you in a similar and quick manner by also referencing ''an aspect'' nodal axis to his venus/ascendant).. this is really only a small part of it and of how i analyze any chart or projection on an outcome of an event.. ''transits'' are treated by some astrologers as the main and primary tool for use in predicting outcomes.. i think this is a mistake myself! when judging camerons chart there are a number of approaches that can and ought to be taken.. just to name a few - solar returns, solar arc directions, secondary progressions, profections, relocation and etc. etc... while i think it's a great idea to study past events to see how they appear based on a previous transit, one will have to also ignore or include these other tools that many astrologers use in order to better assess an outcome on a transit too!

in the case of the transit of pluto square camerons sun, what was it you looked at in his past? the conjunction, or? he has only had the conjunction, 45, or 60 prior to this square transit to his sun.. as vicki also wonders and which i am going to respond to - i think the relationship in the chart itself between the planets involved has bearing on how a transit might unfold. but, one still needs to consider the other predictive tools that have been typically used to get a better read on an outcome.. relying only on transits is a recipe for disaster as i see it!

lloyd cope http://www.solsticepoint.com/astrologer ... /cope.html first introduced me to the idea of considering the natal set up between planets as having a say on how a transit, direction and etc. etc. might unfold.. if you want to continue this conversation - pm me, or start a new thread!!! cheers james

James mentioned microscope versus telescope in astrology. Well a microscope was certainly needed regarding the events surrounding Boris Johnson yesterday!

How to discern the astrologcial indications of "winning" the referendum last week and losing his chance to run for the leadership of the conservative party yesterday only one week later?

Well I looked again at his lunar return. On the day of the referendum there were directions ( by one degree method) which made favourable aspects to the Opening Poll chart.
However for yesterday the directions were very different. His directed Lunar Return conjoining Saturn reached that Uranus / Eris / Ceres conjunction in his Lunar Return 12th and as I indicated in an earlier post the fixed stars associated with this conjunction indicate a crash and burn event.

Also some of the profections for the five hour period from 5 am on the 30th June to 10 am 30th June (he learned of Gove's "assassination" at 8.53 am) were as follows:-

Pars Hyleg conjoin Part of Fortune gives to South node.
Saturn gives to Pars Hyleg conjoin Part of Fortune
House 12 gives to House 11
House 6 to House 5

So I think we need both a microscope and a telescope. For instance I employ this technique with fixed stars. I look at the bigger picture with the brightest stars listed in Ptolemy's time and then zoom in to look at conjunctions with more minor unnamed stars and allow only a 1 - 3 minute orb. Many of these minor stars have only recently been discovered and are located often in "modern constellations" which have turned out to have great significance in the delineation of a chart. However I'm going off topic here .....!