James wrote:

not having a time for someone - especially someone who holds the highest public office in the usa - seems to be a real drag and reflects the lack of support and interest in astrology culturally.. hillary clinton is the first candidate running for president that i can recall, that we don't have a confirmed time for..

Not really. I haven't researched all the data for all the Presidential candidates in history. But I have researched the natal charts of all previous US Presidents.

We actually, dont have accurate timed data for a lot the US Presidents in the 19th century. It only starts to improve later in the 19th century. I assume because birth recording improved and astrology got going in the US around then.

Looking at the 20th century there were 4 US Presidents who have an Astrodatabank DD rating (ie conflicting times with no clear ASC). These were McKinley, Taft, Eisenhower, and most recently Ronald Reagan. The astrodatabank source notes on conflicting times for Reagan fill a whole page!

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Reagan,_Ronald

If we researched losing candidates I suspect there would a lot more DD data.

Still, I understand your frustration. Although, the source evidence for the chart around 08.00am is probably stronger than some B rated charts I have seen.

Mark

Therese, accurate must use the chart once generated, Tin Pic service.

Unless she (or he) becomes gravely, seriously ill I don't think the candidates' health is going to tip the election. The argument that it will, sadly, has been hijacked by alt-right conspiracy theorists. Clinton coughs, and they say she's dying of lung cancer. My point being that a far more serious health issue than pneumonia has not prevented presidents or others in high office from doing their jobs.

Therese, I would attribute the social conscience of both Clinton and Robbins to a tender Pisces moon in tandem with that set of Scorpio-Leo squares. Moon in Pisces can be really tender- hearted (I don't say that it is, because Dick Cheney also had this placement.) The squares indicate enormous internal pressure to DO SOMETHING.

Then both were products of their era, in which '50's complacency gave way to the Civil Rights movement, anti-Vietnam War protests, the War on Poverty, and so on.

While most astrologers seem to be using the 08.02am chart or something close to it the chart around 8PM still has its astrological supporters. From a sidereal perspective our own Therese Hamilton and Jyotish astrologer Joni Patry are using this time.

Amongst tropicalists the late Alexander Marr rectified the chart to 7:58 PM in the 1990s. Today advocates of a time around 08.00pm include Bill Sarubbi (aka Bill Meridian) and Marcia Starck.

The interesting thing about the charts around 8PM is that tropically the rising sign actually changes at 20:00.47pm

So there is an option of either a Gemini and Cancer rising chart.

Here is an article by the astrologer Marcia Starck from 2015 who has rectified Clinton?s chart to 8.02pm. I am not personally convinced by the notion of Clinton as Cancer rising but I am circulating this to disseminate the research.

http://earthmedicineways.com/wp-content ... Marcia.pdf

Mark

Mark wrote:

The interesting thing about the charts around 8PM is that tropically the rising sign actually changes at 20:00.47pm

This is indeed very interesting since it changes the house rulerships of the entire chart. Marcia Starck's article is thought provoking, but she uses techniques and celestial bodies that I've never used.

Something that may not have been discussed yet (lost in one of the many past pages of this topic) is which aspects to the Moon make more sense for a life as an activist and politician:

The AM chart has Mercury (with Venus) trine the Moon. For those who count the quinxunx, Saturn is quincunx the Moon with a one degree orb in the AM chart. Moon is in the 5th--her concern for children.

The PM chart has a prominent Jupiter trine the Moon. This is a political combination which is a main reason I prefer the PM chart. Also it seems to me that Hillary has to have a strong solar influence since she has been in the public spotlight for so many years. In the PM chart the Sun is in the 5th (which could explain her concern for children) and trine the MC.

The MC/IC axis is exactly flipped between the AM and PM charts. So using transits to that axis is extremely tricky.

I think maybe Uranus above the PM ascendant might have turned astrologers away from the evening chart. I often wonder if William Lilly was alive today, if he would point to one of Hillary's charts and say, "There's no doubt that birth time is correct for Hillary's life." I wonder if we have somehow forgotten some important astrological basics that might be in the classical writings.

Maybe it's time to review classical authors and then take out our Ebertin and Charles Carter. I can't make the 2:08 AM chart work at all.

I am very skeptical of using personal appearance to rectify a chart, but Clinton seems to partake of Scorpio and Leo to me.

In some ways she looks like a Leo: blonde hair, round eyes, leadership roles.

In some ways she looks like a Scorpio: very controlled-- never a hair out of place. Secretive/private.

I don't see a scintillating Gemini conversationalist.

Uranus square moon (Scorpio rising) seems to correlate with her penchant for small accidents, and it worked well for timing her broken arm in 2009.

Waybread wrote:

In some ways [Hillary] looks like a Leo: blonde hair, round eyes, leadership roles.

Blond hair, round eyes could be the Moon which is in partile aspect to the PM ascendant. Leadership roles: could be the PM Sun trine the ascendant and MC.

In some ways she looks like a Scorpio: very controlled-- never a hair out of place. Secretive/private.

I dunno. There are some photos out there where her hair is pretty messy. You can tell when she's had help with her hair or just rushed off to an appointment with no styling.

I don't see a scintillating Gemini conversationalist.

But she has no planets except Uranus in Gemini, only the ascendant in some charts. Then we look to what Mercury is doing. All charts have Mercury with Venus squared by Saturn.

Uranus square moon (Scorpio rising) seems to correlate with her penchant for small accidents, and it worked well for timing her broken arm in 2009.

Uranus above the ascendant is square the Moon (3 degree orb) in the PM chart as well. Do we have a date and time for the broken arm? Don't we need Mars for a broken arm?

The problem with astrology is that there are too many possibilities!!

I just watched a short video by Joni Patry. She says she wouldn't be surprised if the person who is elected as U.S. president didn't end up being inaugurated. She expects some kind of high drama and dramatic secrets revealed around the U.S. election. She partly linked this to Rahu and eclipses. She also has the note below on her facebook page, so I'm wondering, Mark, where you saw her support for a PM chart for Hillary? I know K.N. Rao uses the PM chart. (I would like to see Joni favor the PM chart!)

"Since we don't have a birth time for Hilary Clinton I opted to see her through her daughter's chart."
Joni Patry, September 11, 2016 on facebook
https://www.facebook.com/JoniPatryVedicAstrologer/

Therese Hamilton wrote:

She also has the note below on her facebook page, so I'm wondering, Mark, where you saw her support for a PM chart for Hillary? I know K.N. Rao uses the PM chart. (I would like to see Joni favor the PM chart!)

Its on her You Tube video Therese. A lot of astrologers are using this medium now. The FB comment is weird as she claims to have been using the 8.02pm time (sidereal 7 Gemini rising ) for a while on the video. She is listed on my thread on Astrological Predictions on the Presidential election. You need to check it out as its regularly updated! Her comments on Clinton begin about 22 minutes into the 31 minute video.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9205

Mark

Wow, that Prediction list has grown!! I'll definitely watch Joni Patry's video tomorrow.

Maybe the real question now isn't if Hillary Clinton will be elected, but if she will actually be inaugurated in January. It might be time to take a closer look at Tim Kaine's chart as unique_astrology has done earlier in this thread.

My point being that a far more serious health issue than pneumonia has not prevented presidents or others in high office from doing their jobs.

That's your personal opinion. The mundane question is whether or not the electorate feels the same way. One of my college professors said it best: "It's not what's true that counts; it's what everyone believes is true that matters."

If the electorate thinks she is too ill to do the job, they will vote accordingly. This is why the Clinton campaign is putting out so many different stories: she's healthy, she has allergies, she has the flu, she has pneumonia, others have had worse, Donald Trump is sicker than she is, etc. They are trying to give the impression that it is safe to vote for her. They wouldn't be doing that, if it were no big deal. FDR's polio is irrelevant, his poor health at Yalta might be.

The progressed or directed Moon might be helpful in this matter.

I watched most of Joni Patry?s video noted on Mark?s U.S. Presidential Prediction topic, and yes, Joni clearly says that in the past and present she has used an 8:02 PM time for Hillary Clinton, and it has worked very well. I?ve shifted the time back to 6:01:30 to place the ascendant between 6 Gem 30 and 7 degrees as that shastyamsa (half degree) is more in line with Hillary?s life.

Similar to western classical astrology, India?s astrology has sets of rules and regulations that need to be followed (no fudging!), so I was gratified to see that Joni followed the same interpretation principles I do in analyzing the candidates? charts. There are two differences, however. Joni uses whole sign houses, and I use Raman-Velow houses.

So the Saturn influence in Donald Trump?s chart (transit Saturn on Ketu-Moon in January 2017) Joni places in the 4th house, whereas I would place it in the 5th. This transit opposes Trump?s Sun which is his Leo ascendant lord and sense of self. In itself this transit doesn?t point to happy feelings and victory or a move to the opulent presidential palace.

Turning to Hillary Clinton?s chart, she is currently in a Moon-Jupiter dasa period. As Moon is in the 10th in the PM chart, and in trine to Jupiter (lord of 10th, Pisces) Hillary is now in a major role before the public. Transiting Jupiter in Virgo is also presently aspecting Hillary?s PM Pisces Moon.

A difference between Joni and myself is the ayanamsa. With the Lahiri ayanamsa (Joni), this Jupiter period doesn?t end until late February 2017. With the Krishnamurti ayanamsa Jupiter shifts to Saturn on January 2 of 2017, perhaps to set the tone of the weight of responsibility of the coming presidency which takes effect on January 20.

I find it interesting that in choosing the PM birth time for Hillary, Joni pretty much stands alone among western educated Jyotish astrologers who are ?out there? on the lecture-conference circuit, and who shifted from the tropical to India?s astrology and sidereal zodiac.