Hi Andrew,

Well, my personal contribution to disclosing the winner (and runner-up) was pretty lousy this time round, but I don't mind as long as it is in for the learning. I have to post a loss, but my betting account is still up some ?2250 after the Eurovision winning.

Well one miss is nothing to beat yourself up about. Especially with two amazing Eurovision predictions under your belt! Putting your neck out and predicting a complex tournament like this is never easy. As you suggest getting it wrong can be very instructive and helps us to refine our ideas.

One of the things that suprizes (and disappoints) me the most is that the beautiful total solar eclipse that travelled across the Pacific up to the latitude of the Brazillian Capital before landing in Argentina - didn't deliver anything obvious to the eye. I suppose the eclipse in Cancer on the day of the final could go under a category of 'Destination South Africa' and then there was the interesting fact of the eclipse during the final.

I was never sure if the eclipse was a positive or negative omen. We have our answer now! Looking at this traditionally being under an eclipse path was always a malefic phenomenon. Didn't the Babylonians install a surrogate King to reign to soak up all the bad energy from an eclipse? I am therefore not disappointed. Just more respectful of traditional attitudes.

Just to show how poor my prediction was (at least it was an absolute write-off and not something I should pretend to be a half-right), Brazil (my guess) is ruled by Virgo - while the winner was Spain, ruled by Sagittarius (that's a square for sure!). I probably thought Argentina, ruled by Libra, where likely to prove the hardest contestants for the trophy, but then the runners-up were Holland ruled by Cancer - that is another square!

You were in good company. I had exactly the same take on things. Although in my case a faulty intuitive hunch that a South American team ie Brazil or Argentina would win. Fortunately, something stopped me ever putting money on that feeling!

Deb made an interesting comment in the first World Cup thread before the Tournament started. She suggested because of the collective hysteria mounting on the World Cup is was possibly already too late to do totally detached predictive work on the final outcome. Astrologers are as much sucked into this collective zeigeist as anyone else. This picks up Gunhilde's point that she would start her research well before the next tournament begins.

It does seem as if that particular horary was off the mark as it didn't really fit the symbolism of either of the finalists. As you mentioned maybe the chart being radical is crucial after all.

Another point I wonder about is how accurate these associations to countries are? Who decided Brazil was Virgo and Argentina Libra? In the case of Spain we can go right back to Ptolemy. However, for Latin American countries the attributions of signs to them obviously cannot be that old? (This is usually the kind of comment that stirs up Margherita to step in and cite a 16th century astrological text to prove me wrong! If you are reading this Margherita please do so! ), Also what if a national chart brings up something totally different sign wise? I would like to research this topic more. One idea I will be using in future is checking transits to the Aries Ingress angles for the various countries. For example, transiting Mars had moved to conjunct the ascendant of the Spanish Aries Ingress chart located for Madrid on the day of the World Cup final.

Considering that Jupiter was in the early degrees of Aries and joined to Uranus, that it is interesting that whether Spain or Holland won the final - it would have been a first time win for either of them.

Indeed. I am glad it was Spain though. Especially with the dirty way Holland played. I guess it must have been a strategy planned by the Dutch manager to stiffle the flowing Spanish game. To an extent it succeeded at the expense of the game. Overall, I think the Germans were unlucky to meet Spain in the semi-final. They are a great team and deserved to be runners up. They must be strong contenders for Euro 2012.

MarkC's comments about Neptune on the ascendant and the tournament being coloured by poor referee decisions is quite appropriate (although I think they were up against a hard job).

I agree. I think the English referee didn't want to spoil the competitive edge to the game by sending off players in the first half of the match. Still de Jong's karate style tackle was quite outrageous. He should have been sent off immediately. Ahh the joys of hindsight...As Aglaya suggests he probably didn't see it properly. A nice link to the new Moon/Eclipse symbolism as Aglaya already pointed out. I thought the boos the referee got as he collected his trophy were really unsporting and sad. The poor guy ended up offending both sides.

The turmoil of France (Leo, and a solar eclipse) might be given some thought, considering that the were there at the expence of Ireland. But that is just the way the ball rolls...

Well France did certainly self combust! However, surely the effects of the eclipse cannnot be traced to beforehand?

Mark

Some conclusions regarding the World Cup and final chart.
Brazil got the cup in 1958 in Sweden, and since until 2010 no team from Europe got it outside Europe nor a South American team in Europe. 52 years is very close to Chiron's cycle (50,9 years) who likes paradoxes and unexpected turns of events.

Fiasco of France and Italy, both ruled by Leo and Sun, actually was no surprise. During the Cup the Sun was at his lovest above the horizon and thus very week. Majority of France and Italy games began with Aquarius ASC which proved lethal for Leo countries.

Fiasco of South Americans (except Uruguay) actually was a surprise for me. I initially went for Argentina because of its strong symbolic linkage with silver - the Moon which eclipses the Sun in her own sign. Unfortunately, I was wrong.

Why Spain? It is now obvious. Jupiter is the strongest planet in the chart (having dignities through reception by exaltation with the Sun (natural significator of gold) and triplicity ruler by night) ruling V house by exaltation. Both luminaries in Cancer obviously strengthened Jupiter.

R Neptun on ASC could have been also an indication for Spain but I was not sure about this. I sometimes use R Transsaturnian planets as significators according to the pattern I explained, but this method needs further testing.

Why Spain? It is now obvious. Jupiter is the strongest planet in the chart (having dignities through reception by exaltation with the Sun (natural significator of gold) and triplicity ruler by night) ruling V house by exaltation. Both luminaries in Cancer obviously strengthened Jupiter.

While I think you delivered some great work I am still not convinced that Spain is the obvious. Jupiter in Aries could represent Spain (Sagittarius) or Germany, Denmark or England (Aries). Cancer could have been Holland - and that is starters. However, the mutual reception that you point out between the Sun and Jupiter by exaltation is a good point. But then the Moon eclipsing the Sun appears to have had a ruthless effect on the Sun (Leo -Italy and France).

The next point is that if Spain is obvious, then next time is supposed to be easy and the same method will lead to the correct result upon the next opportunity. That is the scientific criteria. However, it doesn't matter if the method is changed for one approach to another, as far as I am concerned, as long as it leads to the right result. I think we will find the contest equally challenging next time round, but has been done some important work here that passes on more of a background and give us more to compare with.

While I think you delivered some great work I am still not convinced that Spain is the obvious. Jupiter in Aries could represent Spain (Sagittarius) or Germany, Denmark or England (Aries). Cancer could have been Holland - and that is starters.

Yes results are always obvious...afterwards! My old history teacher used to say that events are only 'inevitable' once they have happened!

This raises the point I made in my last post.

Another point I wonder about is how accurate these associations to countries are? Who decided Brazil was Virgo and Argentina Libra? In the case of Spain we can go right back to Ptolemy. However, for Latin American countries the attributions of signs to them obviously cannot be that old? .... Also what if a national chart brings up something totally different sign wise? I would like to research this topic more.

As Andrew points out even when we agree on associations it can be confusing with numerous competitors. Plus what about say African teams we have no astrological associations for traditionally? I personally know nothing about the astrological profile of Ghana. Does anyone here? Hypothetically, what if some of these countries had been Jupiter ruled? If this is genuinely a WORLD cup we need a wider perspective IMO. Still, I agree the chart Almuten is worth checking out. I personally think that might be a more reliable indicator of the favourite than the Moon.

If we are going to bring in mundane factors to tag countries I see us having three choices:

1 Traditional associations of signs to countries (what if there are none?)
2 National charts
3 Aspects to Aries Ingress chart (ie the angles)

Mark

Mark you said

If we are going to bring in mundane factors to tag countries I see us having three choices:

1 Traditional associations of signs to countries (what if there are none?)

Earlier in the thread I think you mentioned setting up a thread in the mundane forum to discuss Ptolemy/Bonatti et al attributions. I think it would be a great idea if you do this. When I read Ptolemy translation I get the impression that the astrological attributions may have derived from the assumed nature of each regions' peoples rather than the other way round. Maybe that is just the transalation though. I think it would be interesting to discuss the whole subject at length.

Amelia wrote:

Earlier in the thread I think you mentioned setting up a thread in the mundane forum to discuss Ptolemy/Bonatti et al attributions. I think it would be a great idea if you do this. When I read Ptolemy translation I get the impression that the astrological attributions may have derived from the assumed nature of each regions' peoples rather than the other way round. Maybe that is just the transalation though. I think it would be interesting to discuss the whole subject at length.

Hello Amelia,

Yes I do intend to do this. Ptolemy does seem to consider climatic factors and divides the quarters into the astrological triplicities. Hephaistio of Thebes also mentions a bit on countries linked to signs too. However, its interesting that Ptolemy mentions a third factor which is the links countries have to constellations rising in their latitudes. This is even more explicit in Vettius Valens. However, apart from Lilly and the English seventeenth century astrologers the only medieval sources I have discussing countries and signs is Ibn Ezra and Bonatti. There is clearly lots of mundane material from Persian, Arabic, Latin and Reniassance astrology it would be useful to have others input on on.

I have just been hesitating whether to put this in the mundane or traditional forum? Any views?

Mark

MarkC wrote:
YI have just been hesitating whether to put this in the mundane or traditional forum? Any views?

For what I understood from Feraboli comment to the Italian translation of Tetrabiblos many scholars became mad - don't take me too literally -to find Ptolemy sources for Tetrabiblos II.4

Feraboli lets understand her readers it should be some partition of the map of "ecumene", Ptolemy wrote the book about Geography, and his astrological projection fits with his geographical work.

margherita

Feraboli lets understand her readers it should be some partition of the map, Ptolemy wrote the book about Geography, and his astrological projection fits with his geographical work.

Hi Margherita,

Good point. There is obviously a strong link. I was planning to study that book at some point. Was it written before Tetrabiblos? I took a quick peak at an online version of Ptolemy's Geography.

Feraboli lets understand her readers it should be some partition of the map of "ecumene''

You had me totally lost with the word 'ecumene' . Fortunately, I found this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumene

Mmm this all sounds like its going to get way too heavy for the mundane (or Sports!) forum. Plus I think I am more likely to get better informed discussion of the history and sources on the traditional forum so I will open a thread over there this week.

Thanks

Mark

MarkC wrote: You had me lost with the word 'ecumene' . Fortunately, I found this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumene
Mark

I forgot you are not a Catholic, for us it is a common word.

I will wait for the new thread.

margherita

I looked at opening chart and try to find the "reason" why Spain. Yes, Ju has most acc dignities. Ju rulers Sag sign countries and Pi sign, but because we have Sag ASC, we concentrate our attention on Sag countries and they are Spain, Australia and SAfrica. Ju is in 5 house that is Northwest direction from Johanesburg. Australia is east, SAfrica do not fit, so Spain remain - fit with Northwest direction! It seams that planet is more important then sign in which it is.

I looked at opening chart and try to find the "reason" why Spain. Yes, Ju has most acc dignities. Ju rulers Sag sign countries and Pi sign, but because we have Sag ASC, we concentrate our attention on Sag countries and they are Spain, Australia and SAfrica. Ju is in 5 house that is Northwest direction from Johanesburg. Australia is east, SAfrica do not fit, so Spain remain - fit with Northwest direction! It seams that planet is more important then sign in which it is.

Hello Goca,

Is this the opening match of the World Cup, opening ceremony or start of the final you are discussing? I assume its the latter? If so I can check this out as I have loaded up all the opening game charts since the World Cup Final in 1950. Yes I was interested in the directional approach myself and suggested this in the opening thread regarding signs symbolising directions as in horary. I tried using triplicity rulers for the MC or domicile rulers for the ASC/DESC. However, its simply didn't work out for signs =directions. Mind you I wasn't using a chart Almuten! I will check out the houses angle on the chart Almuten too. Personally, I need to see this replicated in other World Cups. The fact it happens to work in this World Cup proves nothing to me. Still, you have given me an interesting technique to research. Thanks.

Like everything in life this is not as simple as it looks though. For example in terms of essential dignity the different triplicity systems will assign different status to Venus and Mars in water signs depending whether you are using the system of Dorotheus or Ptolemy. Then there is the differences on the system of terms ie Ptolemy or Egyptian.

If we use accidental dignity it gets even more messy. Not least differing house systems! One system might have a planet in the 5th while another has it in the 6th. Plus how much do we weigh sect in our considerations? Lilly and the other 17th century astrologers didn't weight it. However, it was very important to ancient authorities. Sorry to be awkward but these issues wont go away.

I hope this doesn't end up being another astrological fig leaf to explain away our inferiority to the Octopos oracle.

Mark

MarkC wrote: Hello Goca,

Is this the opening match of the World Cup

Yes, that is Opening Match South Africa - Mexico

If so I can check this out as I have loaded up all the opening game charts since the World Cup Final in 1950.

Wow, that will be really interesting to check that out Mark!!