Tom, I took your point on what the electorate thinks a while back.

My continuing hope is that astrologers here who might be similarly inclined see sweet reason.

Re: Clinton's broken arm in 2009:

Therese, I know you're into rulerships, which I think is crucial for timing events.

According to Ridder-Fitzpatrick, Handbook of Medical Astrology, the elbow bone is at 24 degrees Gemini.

In modern astrology, Uranus rules "sudden upsets" such as accidents.

Natally Clinton has Uranus at 25 Gemini 55'. With the 8:02 am birth time her moon is at 22 Pisces 51'; a square with a 3-degree orb. I would therefore assume that Clinton's elbow/mid-arm or feet (tripping) might be vulnerable. (25 degrees Gemini is the radius.)

Clinton broke her elbow in a fall on June 17, 2009.

On that date she had transiting:

Uranus at 26 Pisces 32' conjunct natal moon (4 degree orb) and square natal Uranus (within 1 degree orb.)

Sun partile conjunct natal Uranus.

On that date she had progressed:

moon partile conjunct natal Uranus.

Mars conjunct MC (1.5 degree orb)

Chiron conjunct Mercury (1 degree orb)

I think Clinton might be a bit of a klutz. In modern astrology Chiron shows us "where it hurts," be it emotionally or physically. (I broke my ankle when transiting Chiron conjuncted my natal Mercury (rules walking) in Aquarius (rules the ankles.)

Clinton's natal sun-Mercury near- midpoint in Scorpio pretty closesly opposes the near-midpoint of her Uranus (sudden upsets)-Pisces (rules the feet) midpoint in Taurus. Put differently using far-midpoints, they're conjunct at 9 degrees of Taurus and Scorpio.

On Clinton's accident day, transiting Mars and Venus, at 11 and 10 degrees Taurus, respectively, were pretty close.

But Clinton's chart seems especially sensitive to Uranus. Both because of this accident timing, and also because on November 8, Clinton's solar arc Uranus conjuncts her MC. Either being elected president or missing out are real MC matters subject to Uranian sudden change.

(Trump's chart, Rodden AA, shows Uranus square MC on November 8.)

One other thing I noticed about the sun in Clinton's chart, using a 10-degree orb, is that the only major aspect it makes is to Uranus, and it is out of sign. I increasingly see the quintile as an important aspect, and she does have sun quintile Saturn. (Which I think contributes to her extraordinary self-discipline.) We could stretch her sun's orb a bit to include her planets at 14 degrees of Scorpio, but then the wider the orb the less noted the aspect.

She does, however, have her Scorpio sun and Leo Mars in mutual reception.

This looks to me like a lady who goes her own way.

Waybread, I'd like to discuss this injury further using exact degrees and minutes, but this is off topic for this Election subject. If you're interested, should you or I can copy your posts to a new topic? When there are specific events for an older person, I always like to compare tropical and sidereal orbs.

Is there a location and approximate time of day for Hillary's fall? It would be especially interesting to note the precise orb of transiting Sun to natal Uranus, but we need a time and location for the event. I did a quick Ennead chart for this event, and transiting Uranus is directly on the ascendant on natal Moon while natal Uranus is at the nadir. (PM chart) A double Uranus is pretty impressive for a fall and broken elbow. This places the "elbow bone" on the Ennead ascendant in early sidereal Gemini. This type of precise event is a great way to rectify a time of birth.

EDIT 9:30 PM: Apparently this broken elbow was big news as there are a number of news sites that covered the event and the follow-up operation. An Associated Press release says the fall happened around 5 pm in the State Department garage.

What do you say, Waybread? Would you like to open a "Rectifying Hillary Clinton's Chart" topic for events in her life?

Therese, please start another thread, if you wish. I'll contribute if I can. It look a little doing to find the date of Clinton's broken arm, which was in Washington, DC. I couldn't say the time, though it apparently occurred during the early evening, and maybe you could narrow it down further through more news articles than I looked at.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/19/us/po ... inton.html

I assume you use the free charts pages at Astrodienst? They give degrees and minutes on natal and event charts. They aren't so sensitive for timing on transits. Have you got software that could look at that?

Waybread wrote:

One other thing I noticed about the sun in Clinton's chart, using a 10-degree orb, is that the only major aspect it makes is to Uranus, and it is out of sign.

We have a much stronger Sun in the PM chart:

Libra Sun trine the Gemini ascendant 3? orb
Libra Sun trine trine the Aquarius MC 3? orb (grand trine Asc-Sun-MC)
Libra Sun square Capricorn Fortuna 42' orb

(Remembering that sidereal Libra Sun, the Scales of Justice, is like Tropical Scorpio in disposition...and Hillary was a lawyer.)

Sun rules the 3rd PM sidereal house (arms) AND the 8 PM tropical house, and it was the transiting Sun that so closely conjoined natal Uranus when Hillary fell and broke her elbow.

For software I use Solar Fire, and I also have two Jyotish programs that are very detailed. I don't use Astrodienst. Waybread, I would only want to start another thread if you were a primary contributor and we copied your posts to the topic, as you brought up the topic of Hillary's broken elbow.

Hi Therese-- I'll see if I can come up with any other health events for Clinton prior to starting a new thread, like her recent pneumonia flap.

I generally use Placidus, but I sometimes switch to whole signs if the biographical information seems to fit better that way. Clinton has kind of a bi-valent personality to me.

With the 8:02 am birth time, Clinton's 12th house Scorpio/9th house Leo planets in Placidus seem appropriate for someone reputed to be private to the point of secrecy (12th) and Secretary of State (9th house, equivalent to a minister for foreign affairs.)

But in whole signs, Clinton's Scorpio planets move to the first house and the Leo planets move to the 10th house, where they gain a whole lot of traction. This seems reasonable for a major American political figure.

Then Clinton's domiciled Jupiter moves into the second house, which seems reasonable for a woman as wealthy as she is.

Whole signs also move Clinton's 8:02 am Pisces moon into the 5th house of children. She's spent a lifetime on behalf of family law and improving the condition of poor children.

I'll go back and look at other transits and progressions, but I think Clinton's 8:02 am MC in Virgo works well, notably the solar arc Uranus conjunction on election day.

Waybread wrote:

Hi Therese-- I'll see if I can come up with any other health events for Clinton prior to starting a new thread, like her recent pneumonia flap.

In the meantime, here are the PM precessed (tropical) and non-precessed (sidereal) orbs at 5 PM in the State Department's basement garage (AP news release) on the day Hillary fell and broke her elbow, 17 June 2009:

25 Gem 55 Uranus natal tropical (AM time 56' R)
26 Gem 47 Sun transit tropical (orb 52')

2 Gem 53 Uranus natal sidereal K
2 Gem 48 Sun transit sidereal (orb 5')

Thank you, Waybread, for the book on medical astrology you mentioned. I thought I was finally done with buying books, but that sounds like a good one.

one can always pm another person if they feel it is taking away from the focus of the thread - and mark please delete this post when it is time...

i find a lot of the conversations i need to be involved in, don't involve everyone! i could have sent this to theresa and waybread, but thought i would also let others know of this valuable private messaging feature that skycript has.. cheers james

James, we disagree. I think the timing of a presidential candidate's chart is just critical to a lot of the mundane work we do to predict election outcomes. It makes a huge difference.

I might start another thread on rectifying Clinton's chart, but see no reason to keep it confidential. Please disregard any of my public posts that do not appeal to you, and move on to the ones that do.

If the mods disagree, of course, that's their call.

Waybread, I agree that any research that would relate to trying to find the correct time for Clinton's chart would be of public interest. And this thread is getting long, so if we have the time and energy, a new thread would be good.

Since we do have a verified time for Tim Kaine, I'm surprised his chart isn't being discussed. I can't remember where or if I posted a comparison with Hillary's chart, which is quite striking, at least for the PM time.

Waybread wrote:

I think the timing of a presidential candidate's chart is just critical to a lot of the mundane work we do to predict election outcomes. It makes a huge difference.

This raises a point I saw Kevin Burk mention on a Facebook discussion recently. He was suggesting that much of what is passed off as political or mundane astrology relating to the US election is really just natal astrology. And certainly this political 4 year jambaree seems to attract astrologers who seem to take little or no interests in mundane issues or politics from one 4 year cycle to the next. I do think astrologers working at just this natal level without a wider consideration of planetary cycles or more foundational mundane charts have an inadequate outlook.

One might apply this criticism not just to much of modern astrology but also to most Indian and so called neo-hellenistic astrology which both seem to fall back heavily on natal charts to provide answers to mundane issues.

Nevertheless, natal charts are still very useful as an additional testimony in mundane issues. I have been assisted in correct predictions in the past utilising natal transits, profections and solar returns. The lack of completely reliable accurate natal data for Clinton has made that kind of approach more difficult than in any political prediction I have examined before.

I might start another thread on rectifying Clinton's chart, but see no reason to keep it confidential. Please disregard any of my public posts that do not appeal to you, and move on to the ones that do.

If the mods disagree, of course, that's their call.

I see you have already gone ahead and set up your new thread. Its up to members if they want to start a new discussion. I just feel the title you have chosen for your thread is quite misleading. You dont really take an open minded approach to a rectification of Clinton's chart looking at various life events. Instead you clearly plump for the 08.02am time and offer timed events to justify it. That is not genuine rectification as I see it. I therefore now feel compelled to open a quite separate thread examining rectification of Clinton's chart compiling available sources, existing rectifications and numerous life events. I was planning to use the title you have taken for your new thread. I guess I will have to come up with something else now.

Mark

Mark wrote (to Waybread):

Its up to members if they want to start a new discussion. I just feel the title you have chosen for your thread is quite misleading. You dont really take an open minded approach to a rectification of Clinton's chart looking at various life events. Instead you clearly plump for the 08.02am time and offer timed events to justify it. That is not genuine rectification as I see it.

I think it's OK on a birth time discussion thread for each astrologer to show by his or her favorite techniques why one time is superior over another. Most of us have already made up our minds about Hillary Clinton's birth time, AM or PM. So I'll respond on the new thread as soon as I'm able.

It also seems like a good idea to have a thread which summarizes astrologers' reasons for choosing a particular time. The title "Hillary Clinton's Birth Time" doesn't include the term "rectification," so that term is still available. I would suggest, Mark, if you open a new locked thread that tropical entries be separated from sidereal entries. This would highlight the differences in technique which I think are important.