Whiplashed by these birth times!

In spite of the appropriate looking charts for those events I went back and reworked the charts for 8:02 am because I believe Hillary will win the election and when I compare charts for that event using the two times the only one that shows a winning chart is the 8:02. The charts for those events (Not shown here) using 8:02 although not as striking in appearance as those based on 2:18 (also not shown) still provide strong charts appropriate for each event. I was holding on to a long held bias for 2:18 but believing Hillary will win the election leaves me with no choice between the two but to accept 8:02. I think the problem with similar charts is caused by the near 6 hour difference in the 2 times. It would yield chart MCs about 90 degrees apart having the effect of producing similar points near the angles, just a 1/4 turn different thus showing potentially viable charts using either time.

Hillary's progressed natal (Q2 Mean Quotidian angles - the progression I always use) to 9 pm, EST, on election night in New York (her campaign HQ) and the progression for myself using my favorite toy (progressed anlunar).

Hill's is easy - Progressed natal Jupiter on the MC trined by progressed natal Pluto (in longitude).

Mine has MC at 278?12' using midnight of Nov 8th (277?06' if I used 10 pm) with the midpoint of progressed natal Mercury/Sun on the ASC at 277?00', progressed natal Mercury/Venus at 277?09', return Jupiter on the DESC at 277?45' along with progressed natal Moon there at 277?13'. Planetary positions would not change perceptibly in the 2 hours difference. Just the return Jupiter along with progressed natal Moon on the DESC is enough for me.

And progressed natal Sun and Venus and return Uranus to be swept by the ASC in a few hours to be experienced should I decide to stay up until later.

Transit Neptune now at 341?37' (-180? = 161?37') opposes Trumps natal Neptune/Pluto midpoint at 160?09'and Solar eclipse point at 160?56' through election night getting closer to exact with every passing day. Nep opp Nep/Plu midpoint. Eclipse on Nep/Plu midpoint. Strong, lingering attack on his already twisted psyche.

Trump's demi-anlunar progressed to Oct 7th at 5 PM, EDT in New York City. MC was at 310?37'.

Progressed natal Saturn/Pluto midpoint at 310?42' is on the IC. Oh, happy days!

Breaking: Exclusive Video of Tonight's Meeting at the RNC

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512478536

First off Therese thanks for releasing the ISAR video earlier this week. Sorry to be so belated in thanking you but its been a busy week.

Mark wrote:

I suppose there are two ways of explaining this wide disparity. Firstly, does this show inherent pro-Democrat bias in the US astrological community? Could it be that astrologers are not an accurate reflection of the American population as a whole and tend to be more liberal/left leaning than the average American? If so, does the balance of pro-Democrat predictions by US astrologers reflect such a political prejudice?

Therese Hamilton wrote:

I think it's probably true that astrologers in the United States lean more toward the Democratic persuasion. So I wouldn't take the high percentage of Clinton predictions as representing the American pubic as a whole. I don't have records to check, but for past elections I believe that the Democratic-Republication split for astrological predictions was more equal. This year there are many astrological pointers to difficulties for Donald Trump.

I dont think a systematic survey of predictions has been done at many other Presidential election so its hard to be sure. However, Chris Brennan did do a round up predictions on the 2012 Presidential election. Out of 45 predictions before polling day in 2012 31 predicted an Obama win (69%) and 14 predicted a Romney win (31%). If you include US and foreign predictions for 2016 the overall percentage favouring Clinton is broadly similar if slightly higher.

Mark wrote:

A second, explanation might be that American astrologers possess a greater understanding of US political structures such as the electoral college which currently gives the Democrats a built in advantage. So might these insights combined with astrological technique give American astrologers an inherent edge in making an accurate prediction?

Therese Hamilton wrote:

Anyone with even a little political know-how realizes that Donald Trump doesn't have the disposition to cooperate with Congress, or for that matter, to cooperate with anyone else. He has been a self-made man supporting his own interests as a businessman. Hillary has spent most of her adult life in politics and knows the cooperative political ropes through and through. Even Republicans are supporting Hillary as they know that Donald Trump doesn't have the personality or experience to be a successful president. The split in the Republican party is very real and traumatic for Republicans.

The situation really boils down to those who understand how government works support Hillary Clinton, and Trump supporters are those who know little about government, but like the idea of an entertaining outsider with charisma leading the country. Education or the lack of it plays a big part in the choices people are making at this time. There is also the usual split of Democratic support along the heavily populated coasts and Republican support in the central sparsely settled rural part of the country.

Therese,

I really wasn't inviting you to share your political reasons for why you favour Hillary Clinton as President. Once we open the floodgates to turning this into a political soapbox on either side its a rapid race to the bottom in terms of astrological content. I know there are many Americans who hold diametrically different opinions on the two candidates to yourself. And many who cannot stand either and will be voting third party or not at all.

I have raised this issue with you before on this thread. I will issue no further warning. Inappropriate political content like this will be deleted without warning in future.

Thanks

Mark

Unique_astrology wrote:

In spite of the appropriate looking charts for those events I went back and reworked the charts for 8:02 am because I believe Hillary will win the election and when I compare charts for that event using the two times the only one that shows a winning chart is the 8:02... I was holding on to a long held bias for 2:18 but believing Hillary will win the election leaves me with no choice between the two but to accept 8:02.

I agree that I cannot see a win with the 2:18 birth time. But, Bob, have you looked at an 8:01 PM (or thereabouts) time with your methods? It seems that in earlier years Hillary consistently gave out an 8 PM birth time. Using your techniques, I would be very interested in what a PM time shows, because using my techniques a victory is secure with that time. The MC/IC angles between the AM and PM times are an exact flip.

Mark wrote:

I really wasn't inviting you to share your political reasons for why you favour Clinton. Once we open the floodgates to turning this into a political soapbox on either side its a rapid race to the bottom in terms of astrological content. I know there are many Americans who hold diametrically different opinions on the two candidates to yourself. And many who cannot stand either and will be voting third party or not at all.

These are not my political views!! I am reporting what appears daily in the news media which I have full access to here in the United States. For many years we have watched the role of Hillary Clinton in politics. For many years we have watched Donald Trump on his television reality shows, and followed his business dealings and financial ups and downs in the news. Please don't mistake news coverage for my personal point of view. What I have written is purely factual and agreed to by members of both parties.

Mark, you don't live here in America, and can't have the same insider's view that those of us have who live here, and who are closely following news coverage in various media. You are jumping to unwarranted conclusions about what is factual and what might be my personal opinion. All you have to do to verify what I have written is call up biographies on the web of the candidates and read about their life patterns and experiences.

As for political involvement, I don't have any! My interest is strictly astrological. Politics has never been an interest priority, as I don't really play the world's games. I stand back and watch and sometimes study the astrology of situations. That's all.

Therese Hamilton wrote: As for political involvement, I don't have any! My interest is strictly astrological.

ahh theresa, if only that were true!! trying sticking to the astrology and skipping the politics.. it is harder then it seems and i for one am guilty of this too.. so much of your commentary here is non astrological... i am surprised you can't see it!

mark - please delete this post at some point.. thanks..

Anyone with even a little political know-how realizes that Donald Trump doesn't have the disposition to cooperate with Congress, or for that matter, to cooperate with anyone else. He has been a self-made man supporting his own interests as a businessman. Hillary has spent most of her adult life in politics and knows the cooperative political ropes through and through. Even Republicans are supporting Hillary as they know that Donald Trump doesn't have the personality or experience to be a successful president. The split in the Republican party is very real and traumatic for Republicans.

The situation really boils down to those who understand how government works support Hillary Clinton, and Trump supporters are those who know little about government, but like the idea of an entertaining outsider with charisma leading the country. Education or the lack of it plays a big part in the choices people are making at this time. There is also the usual split of Democratic support along the heavily populated coasts and Republican support in the central sparsely settled rural part of the country.

Anyone who knows how things work realizes Hillary should be in jail.
I have a BA in political science, and I'm voting for Trump.

Get it? I'm making a point, not starting an argument This is an astrology forum, and there isn't a word of astrology in the above quote, your biases are obvious. Defending your biases by citing the biases of the press you happen to believe is not objective. Stick with the astrology. Bias here and there is inevitable. Wholesale propaganda is unacceptable.

James wrote:

trying sticking to the astrology and skipping the politics.. it is harder then it seems and i for one am guilty of this too.. so much of your commentary here is non astrological... i am surprised you can't see it!

I suppose if I can't see it, it's because I when I write I have the candidates' charts in my mind's eye. As for my last post, I was trying to reply to Mark's remarks about how astrologers make predictions. I thought forum members might want to be kept up on the political scene here in the U.S. But as my posts are being misunderstood, I won't write anything else on this topic.

I hope that Unique_Astrology (Bob) might have something to say about Hillary's 8 PM birth time.

Charts done for 9 pm, EST, NYC.

Using a 8 pm, CST, birth chart (9 pm NYC) and applying my technique yielded a progressed anlunar with natal and progressed natal Saturns on the ASC in longitude. (ASC 22?56' Leo; Saturns 21?21' and 21?50' Leo).

Progressing the 2016 precession corrected solar return using that birth chart had return Saturn on the MC. Doing the same with the 8:02 derivative has progressed natal Jupiter on the IC. (IC 15?12' Sag, prog natal Jup 15?42' Sag; in right ascension IC 253?56' - Jup 254?32').

Unique_Astrology wrote:

Charts done for 9 pm, EST, NYC.

Using a 8 pm, CST, birth chart (9 pm NYC) and applying my technique yielded a progressed anlunar with natal and progressed natal Saturns on the ASC in longitude. (ASC 22?56' Leo; Saturns 21?21' and 21?50' Leo).

So you are re-locating the birth chart to New York and changing the time to 9 pm??

Progressing the 2016 precession corrected solar return using that birth chart...

Do you mean a 9 pm NYC birth chart (progressed from the date of birth)?

...had return Saturn on the MC. Doing the same with the 8:02 derivative has progressed natal Jupiter on the IC. (IC 15?12' Sag, prog natal Jup 15?42' Sag; in right ascension IC 253?56' - Jup 254?32').

What is meant by "8:02 derivative"?

So...asking...depending on whether an NYC locale birth chart is used we get Saturn emphasis (?) or if the CST Chicago time is used we get a Jupiter emphasis? Without a more detailed explanation I'm rather lost. It is especially confusing if you are using the tropical zodiac with sidereal techniques. I don't suppose you could illustrate the zodiacal contacts with a double wheel?

Therese,

An 8 pm birth in Chicago would be a 9 pm birth in New York. I have always used locality charts, as I did when we both posted in the Sidereal group on Yahoo years ago.

You asked. I did the work. I don't cherry pick my technique. It is the same procedure every time for more than 40 years. I have explained it many times over and will not do it again now. I suggest you just forget my work and make do with what you have.

I am not doing anything Fagan and Bradley didn't do when they first introduced what is now known as Western Sidereal Astrology. The listing of Tropical sign positions was for the benefit of most who read here. I normally do not use signs but use right ascension to list positions to avoid doing so and because I like to show a point's true position from Tropical 0? Aries.

You have tried to find something wrong with my work for years without success.

Unique_Astrology wrote:

You have tried to find something wrong with my work for years without success.

Bob, that isn't true. I didn't even remember seeing much of your work until you posted some examples on the sidereal part of Skyscript. I honestly don't understand what you are doing, which is why I ask questions. I'm very visual. If I don't see charts with planetary glyphs, I often have trouble comprehending what an astrologer is saying. Maybe you are confusing me with someone else?? I'm sure I'm not the only person on this forum who is rather confused with your techniques, and who can't easily grasp what you are trying to say.

The only techniques I have taken from the Fagan school are solar and lunar returns and enneads. I might look at a lunar return now and then, but I don't use lunars regularly. All the other techniques that are used by astrologers of the Fagan school: I never used them. Thus I don't understand them very well.

P.S. I admit to a failing memory. Whatever happened years ago??? It is mostly all gone with only a few short flashes of memory now and then. Once in a while I find something I wrote in the past, and I say to myself, "I would never write that now."