25
Generally it is Venus that is used for the female and the Sun for a male.

In questions about a love interest between two individuals, potential or otherwise, I would always use the 7th house. It doesn't matter whether you have just met or you are already married. As Tom pointed out a while ago on another thread, the 5th house can show the romance itself but does not relate to the individuals involved. In the same way, the 7th house will show the two people involved in a business partnership while we look to another house to show the business itself.

26
I don?t think a ?suck it and see? approach works with horary. If you want clear charts with unequivocal symbolism then you need to adopt a structured technique that constrains the possibilities of what the chart might mean. What you don?t want is a judgement that means one thing if you refer to the 5th house but something altogether different if you then decide to refer to the 7th.

The overriding consensus of opinion on this would be to take signification from the 7th house; if you want to experiment with that, I think you would be better to spend time trying to understand the reasons why the houses mean what they do - so you can establish a consistent and well reasoned approach. Babara Watters, in her Judgement of Events, does say the 5th house rules love affairs, but so do many traditional authors who would still take signification for the ?other party? involved in the love affair from the 7th house. (Watters doesn?t include any example relationship horaries in that book so it?s not really a good reference for opinions in this matter.) Most of the widely recognised sources state that the ?other person? involved in a one-to-one relationship would be judged from the 7th house, regardless of whether the question is one of marriage or just getting a first date. Lilly?s opinion was that the 7th house is used to judge ?all manner of love questions ? whether man or woman, wives, sweethearts ??

I would also be surprised if Lee Lehman is advocating using the 5th house rather than the 7th in a relationship matter, as that is not my understanding of the way she works. Maybe she has changed her opinions lately, although I have heard comments like ?if it?s just sex it?s 5th house, but if there is an emotional relationship it?s 7th? ? comments like that breed confusion because they don?t set clear boundaries.

Lee Lehman and 5th house

27
Actually, Lee Lehman does advocate using the 5th house for lovers and non-cohabiting relationships. She also advocates using the 7th house for live in lovers and married couples.

(I would refer you to her instructional CD series on relationship horaries: "Learning with Lee.")

When you think about it, using the 5th makes a lot of sense when you consider that in Medevial times, people didn't usually have casual boyfriends and girlfriend relationships as they do now. Each relationship was a prelude to marriage and engagements were considered as binding as a marriage. Therefore it would have made sense to use the 7th house in those circumstances.

But today, people often have several casual or even serious romances that don't lead to marriage. In some cases, there is not even the intent that the relationship lead to marriage and I think that's why the distinction needs to be made between the 5th and 7th house depending on the relationship between the two people in question.

28
Actually, Lee Lehman does advocate using the 5th house for lovers and non-cohabiting relationships. She also advocates using the 7th house for live in lovers and married couples.
I have read her latest book and was often surprised at some of the stuff she was advocating. I don?t have the book here with me so I can?t give any examples but it wouldn?t surprise me if she does do this. I still disagree with it though.
When you think about it, using the 5th makes a lot of sense when you consider that in Medevial times, people didn't usually have casual boyfriends and girlfriend relationships as they do now. Each relationship was a prelude to marriage and engagements were considered as binding as a marriage. Therefore it would have made sense to use the 7th house in those circumstances.
It makes no sense at all to differentiate. This is a modern interpolation that leads to distortion of the true intent. A relationship is a relationship whether it is five minutes or five decades. It doesn?t matter if the nature of relationships has changed and we are now more likely to have casual relationships. The third house will always be transport whether we are talking about horse drawn carriages or cars. In the same way, the 7th house will always be used to denote the other person asked about including a romantic interest or a business partnership. We don?t use the 7th house for business partnerships that are life long and then use the 5th house for business partnerships that last a couple of years. We start getting into dangerous territory when we decide to change the meaning of houses from their original intent because this takes us further and further away from the deeper meaning. The classic example, of course, is the shifting of sex from the 5th to the 8th that many astrologers advocate these days. If you understand the meaning of the houses you will know that sex can never be 8th house. In the same way, a deeper understanding of the 5th and 7th houses will make it clear that the 5th house can never be used to signify the other individual in relationship questions. I don?t believe these sorts of confusions would come about if people had a full understanding of the history of the houses and why we use the houses we do.

5th or 7th?

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Well, Deb, I don't what to tell you except that Lee uses the 5th house for lovers and non-cohabiting couples, and the 7th for questions regarding marriage and live-in lovers.

I understand what you're saying about changing the house positions, but while your example in using the 3rd house for transportation holds true whether we're talking about cars or horse-drawn carriages, I don't think the analogy holds up when making a distinction between the 5th and 7th house significators for the reasons I've stated.

All I know is using the 5th as Lee does works for her and it's worked for me, so far.

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Hi Voyagergirl,

You are right when you say Lee uses the 5th house for non cohabiting relationships and the 7th for those that involve living together. And, of course, you should work with whatever method you feel most comfortable. However, Lee has moved away from the traditional interpretation of these houses and into a modern interpretation.This is fine if people want to work that way but it then becomes a modern adaptation (a loose one at that) of traditional astrology rather than traditional astrology. As Deb points out above, Lilly advocates the use of the 7th house for all manner of love questions as do all of the traditional authorities.

Anyway, I have posted below Lee's arguments for the use of the different houses for anyone who might be interested. It is an excerpt of a chart interpretation from the Solar Writer program put out by Esoteric Technologies, makers of Solar Fire. I can see where she is coming from in some parts although I don't agree with it. But it is interesting to see where her reasoning is coming from.

Seventh house:
This house was traditionally designated "marriage," but societal attitudes toward cohabitation following sex have changed! First of all, for large stretches of time in European history, the lower classes cohabited when they felt like it, without the benefit of Church or civil rites to sanctify the union. The elaborate rituals of marriage were reserved for the upper classes. However, those astrologers who catered to the upper classes have proved more successful; thus, our references and our lore on marriage and cohabitation follow the upper class ideal, which has simply been appropriated by the lower classes once overall living standards improved.

However, marriage in the upper class mode was arranged, had nothing to do with love, and everything to do with property and heirs. A proper delineation of the 7th House thus began with the question of whether the Native would marry. This consideration had nothing to do with such questions as: how relationship-oriented is the Native, but whether the Native had or could accumulate sufficient wealth to make marriage a reasonable result, or enterprise.

When the historical association between marriage and business is understood, the attribution of variations of the same thing. However, even so, it was understood that love was possible between partners - it just wasn't necessary.

A loving relationship is shown by a trine or sextile between the rulers of the 1st and 7th Houses, or planets therein.

One more thought. It is still quite obvious to think in terms of relationships being primarily 5th or 7th House in nature. For example, a relationship which is heavily sexual, with no merging of finances and without living together is unequivocally 5th, while a relationship with cohabitation and a greater or lesser degree of financial mingling is 7th in nature. It has become the custom of our society since the Sixties that relationships begin in the 5th, and then move to the 7th if the parties are willing.

5th or 7th?

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How interesting! Thanks for sharing that information.

I've also come across a website recently of another astrologer who says she uses the modern planets as significators sometimes with great success.

I guess the proof lies in the pudding or something like that.

Thank you again.

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Is this a confusion of people vs function?

The 7th is usually viewed as people i.e. spouse, lover, partner (personal or business), open enemies and thieves.

The 5th is usually viewed as function, what you do with people or things, i.e. creation (art, music, children, novel etc.), entertainment, children. Sex usually falls into one of these categories.

Sex (5th) or friendship (11th) or business (10th) is what you do (5th) with a person from the 7th.

At least that is the way I have come to understand it. This seems to be confirmed by:
Deb: Most of the widely recognised sources state that the ?other person? involved in a one-to-one relationship would be judged from the 7th house, regardless of whether the question is one of marriage or just getting a first date. Lilly?s opinion was that the 7th house is used to judge ?all manner of love questions ? whether man or woman, wives, sweethearts ??
and
Sue: The third house will always be transport whether we are talking about horse drawn carriages or cars. In the same way, the 7th house will always be used to denote the other person asked about including a romantic interest or a business partnership. We don?t use the 7th house for business partnerships that are life long and then use the 5th house for business partnerships that last a couple of years.

33
Hi Sungem,

I think you are right. This is a very big part of it. People read that the 5th house is the house of love affairs, pleasure, sex, etc. and then it becomes only a short step to taking the 5th as the other person in the love affair, sex, etc. Lilly very clearly states that the other person is always signified by the 7th house ruler.

As for using outer planets as significators, Lee Lehman has something interesting to say along those lines. In a talk she gave quite some time ago, she said that she wanted to test the theory that Uranus is supposedly the higher octave of Mercury (which I guess is why modern astrologers give signification of astrologers to Uranus), Neptune is supposedly the higher octave of Venus and Pluto the higher octave of Mars. To test this theory, she pulled many of the keywords from each planet and tried to match them up, i.e. Mercury with Uranus etc. What she found was that instead of the outer planets having words that were similar in description to their inner planets, each of the outer planets had keywords most closely resembling Saturn. Her conclusion was that all modern astrology had done was to add three more malefics, making modern astrology far more malefic that they accuse traditional astrology of being. :)

While I do not discount the value of outer planets entirely, they are of no value as significators as they do not rule any sign.

34
Sue: What she found was that instead of the outer planets having words that were similar in description to their inner planets, each of the outer planets had keywords most closely resembling Saturn.
It would of course, make things a lot simpler if we could just pair them up as "higher octaves" to the traditional rulers. When we had a complete set, we could then leave them out of the "normal" working chart, but then if so desired, could set another chart using only the "higher octave" planets! Sort of like an applied chart. :P Unfortunately, there does seem to be some dissention on the pairing.
Her conclusion was that all modern astrology had done was to add three more malefics, making modern astrology far more malefic that they accuse traditional astrology of being.
Hmmm...maybe they are a reflection of the modern age after all :-?
While I do not discount the value of outer planets entirely, they are of no value as significators as they do not rule any sign.
I agree that they can often add to some interpretations and when pertinent, it is surprising how the chart itself seems to point up the relevant outers.

Outer planets

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Interesting about the outer planets. But I was taught that the outer planets ruled the Signs of Aquarius, Scorpio and Pisces (Uranus, Pluto and Neptune) and could be used to signify certain things. For example, Aquarius would rule the airlines.

Barbara Watters gives some good examples of the rulerships of outerplanets in her book, "Horary Astrology and the Judgment of Events."

However, I see that astrologer Diane Stone says that she has at times used the outer planets to signify people with success.

36
Yes, I was taught this too many years ago. However, again, it is a modern interpolation that has no basis in the traditions of astrology. Most modern astrologers agree that the outer three planets are 'generational' planets. They talk about the Pluto in Scorpio generation, for example. Even most of the software programs that have interpretation sections will state that these planets are generational and are not interpreted on an individual basis. So how can they then use an outer planet to signify an individual in a horary chart?

And, of course, the whole structure of rulership falls apart if you try to add the outer planets. Having done my early astrological training with modern astrologers, the first time I completely understood the concept of rulerships so that it made perfect sense to me is when Deb explained it in a workshop I did a few years ago. It is so clear to me why the outer planets cannot be used as rulers that I can no longer even think of it in any other way.

The two links below are well worth reading.


http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary1b.html

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/rulership.html